DiscussMormonism.com

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:56 pm

Chap wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:32 pm

It really is a bit more complex than that, both in terms of what Europeans (a very varied group indeed) will suffer this winter and what (if anything) they are likely to do as a result.

Of course. However, what do you think about going to the negotiation table? The Biden Admin won't even talk to the Russians at this point. Perhaps the parties should at least be talking?

I believe the Ukrainians set the basic bar for the Russians referring to a negotiated stop to hostilities, which is their right, in my opinion. The Russians can stop this any time they want, and then get back to the business of resource extraction. Unfortunately for them, they’re probably on the hook for reconstruction, reparations, and warcrime prosecutions. This’ll probably result in the Russians doubling down until some politically internal thing works itself out.

- Doc

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:49 pm

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:56 pm

Of course. However, what do you think about going to the negotiation table? The Biden Admin won't even talk to the Russians at this point. Perhaps the parties should at least be talking?

I believe the Ukrainians set the basic bar for the Russians referring to a negotiated stop to hostilities, which is their right, in my opinion. The Russians can stop this any time they want, and then get back to the business of resource extraction. Unfortunately for them, they’re probably on the hook for reconstruction, reparations, and warcrime prosecutions. This’ll probably result in the Russians doubling down until some politically internal thing works itself out.

- Doc

Perhaps, but everything is negotiable and the Treaty of Versailles was a mistake imho. I don't think unconditional surrender is in the cards when dealing with a nuclear power. Even if Putin is assassinated, unless it is a product of our meddling and we install another Yeltzin, will the Russians agree to what you are proposing. But I could be wrong.

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:50 pm

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:49 pm

I believe the Ukrainians set the basic bar for the Russians referring to a negotiated stop to hostilities, which is their right, in my opinion. The Russians can stop this any time they want, and then get back to the business of resource extraction. Unfortunately for them, they’re probably on the hook for reconstruction, reparations, and warcrime prosecutions. This’ll probably result in the Russians doubling down until some politically internal thing works itself out.

- Doc

Perhaps, but everything is negotiable and the Treaty of Versailles was a mistake imho. I don't think unconditional surrender is in the cards when dealing with a nuclear power. Even if Putin is assassinated, unless it is a product of our meddling and we install another Yeltzin, will the Russians agree to what you are proposing. But I could be wrong.

The current "special operation" by Russia skirts the 1994 Budapest Memorandum language by claiming it is in self-defense. At some level, the mea culpa is already a condition of anything short of total Russian victory.

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:01 pm

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:50 pm

Perhaps, but everything is negotiable and the Treaty of Versailles was a mistake imho. I don't think unconditional surrender is in the cards when dealing with a nuclear power. Even if Putin is assassinated, unless it is a product of our meddling and we install another Yeltzin, will the Russians agree to what you are proposing. But I could be wrong.

The current "special operation" by Russia skirts the 1994 Budapest Memorandum language by claiming it is in self-defense. At some level, the mea culpa is already a condition of anything short of total Russian victory.

So, how do you see it playing out? How do you enforce the mea culpa? Are we going to attack Russia directly next? Or are we in for another 45 year cold war? Maybe I should invest my money in a defense contractor etf?

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:16 pm

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:01 pm

The current "special operation" by Russia skirts the 1994 Budapest Memorandum language by claiming it is in self-defense. At some level, the mea culpa is already a condition of anything short of total Russian victory.

So, how do you see it playing out? How do you enforce the mea culpa? Are we going to attack Russia directly next? Or are we in for another 45 year cold war? Maybe I should invest my money in a defense contractor etf?

Why would we attack Russia other than they attack a NATO ally?

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:45 pm

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:16 pm

So, how do you see it playing out? How do you enforce the mea culpa? Are we going to attack Russia directly next? Or are we in for another 45 year cold war? Maybe I should invest my money in a defense contractor etf?

Why would we attack Russia other than they attack a NATO ally?

I understood your comment about a mea culpa as supporting any truce based on Russia providing reparations, etc. and my question is how is that going to be enforced. Sanctions don't seem to be working as Russia is selling its resources to other countries while slowing bankrupting European industry. So, how would getting a mea culpa be enforced?

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:50 pm

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:45 pm

Why would we attack Russia other than they attack a NATO ally?

I understood your comment about a mea culpa as supporting any truce based on Russia providing reparations, etc. and my question is how is that going to be enforced. Sanctions don't seem to be working as Russia is selling its resources to other countries while slowing bankrupting European industry. So, how would getting a mea culpa be enforced?

The first step is getting a ceasefire agreement where both Ukraine and Russia agree to terms. Given Russia used the past Minsk Agreements to consolidate power during supposed ends to hostilities, I'm pretty sure the secured means of holding Russia to the agreement is now essential as long as Ukraine has leverage. So your question is tied to the bigger question: Under what conditions can Ukraine accept terms from Russia? And then go from there. Without that security or Ukraine lacking any leverage, your answer is there won't be an agreement before Russia is expelled. And I'd bet dollars to donuts under that scenario Ukraine and Europe make it much more problematic for Russia if they invade again by bringing Ukraine into the EU, possibly NATO.

What has William been smoking? He sounds like the press secretary for North Korea.

Here is his latest:

Will Schryver
@imetatronink
The no longer irresistible force of the US and its Anglosphere/European vassals is now irreversibly committed to wrecking itself against the immovable object of Russia.
11:27 AM · Sep 19, 2022

https://Twitter.com/imetatronink/status ... gr%5Etweet

This guy has 10% as many followers as Russell M. Nelson.
Wow.

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:50 pm

This guy has 10% as many followers as Russell M. Nelson.
Wow.

It's interesting that Russell M. Nelson, the Prophet, Seer and Revelator only has 238k followers. Dieter F. Uchtdorf has 310k followers and even David A. Bednar has 261k followers. I guess Russell M. Nelson just isn't that popular.

Pastor Benny Hinn out of Grapevine Texas has 781k followers. Pastor Kenneth Copeland out of Fort Worth Texas has 681k followers. Pastor Joel Osteen has over 10 million followers.

Just some perspective.