Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by Kishkumen »

“I know the Church is true.”=“My faith in this Church is rewarded with confirming experiences.”
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8980
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

JohnW wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:23 am
Is the church true to the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I think that question was answered when the Mormon church denied the atonement to children of gay parents.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5214
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:12 am
“I know the Church is true.”=“My faith in this Church is rewarded with confirming experiences.”
That’s a great way to put it. They’re typically talking about the personal revelation they have received. Or a strong impression felt.

I don’t think anyone means “I have read Daniel Peterson’s apologetics and Baysean reasoning which convinced me the church is true.”
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by Kishkumen »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:48 pm
That’s a great way to put it. They’re typically talking about the personal revelation they have received. Or a strong impression felt.
Or, just that it works for them in some way. Not everyone has the same kind of confirming experience.

It is when it doesn't seem to work, or there is a concern that faith was not rewarded, or that the reward was misleading that leads to people questioning the basis of their faith and perhaps even leaving.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by dastardly stem »

JohnW wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:33 am


Yeah, I think that is part of what I'm alluding to when I say my relationship with God is sometimes frustrating.
Talking to yourself and expecting magical results would be frustrating. So that makes sense.

There are times when it seems like nothing can be more real than my relationship with God. There are other times when I wonder if I haven't just made it all up in my mind. When I was going through graduate school, I almost became an atheist, so this topic tends to be an extra sensitive one for me, a little like an old wound that aches periodically.
Gotcha. You almost got there. Maybe someday
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
User avatar
sock puppet
High Priest
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:29 pm

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by sock puppet »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:59 pm
drumdude wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:48 pm
That’s a great way to put it. They’re typically talking about the personal revelation they have received. Or a strong impression felt.
Or, just that it works for them in some way. Not everyone has the same kind of confirming experience.

It is when it doesn't seem to work, or there is a concern that faith was not rewarded, or that the reward was misleading that leads to people questioning the basis of their faith and perhaps even leaving.
For many, "man's ways are not God's ways", "God works in mysterious ways", and "in God's time, all will be answered" get pretty thin, pretty tiresome the more you think about it--especially from a church whose leaders claim that God has restored/bestowed all truth through them.
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal." Groucho Marx
"The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie." Mark Twain
The best lack all conviction, while the worst//Are full of passionate intensity." Yeats
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:25 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:30 pm


For the most part and in regards to those things that really matter the leaders of the church have been in harmony. Does that settled position of harmony among the Brethren always occur as some would like it according to their own timetable and/or expectations?

No. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

In order for the church not to be true God would have to withdraw Himself and His authority from the church.

Regards,
MG
"most part", "really matter" - I like how tentative you have to be! To refer to the situation then as a "settled position of harmony" seems like a bit of a stretch. Individual leaders have not even been in harmony with themselves about doctrine.
That is true. But over time and as the dust settles they come to consensus. Or at least they resolve issues to the point that individually they cede their differences to the higher authority.
malkie wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:25 pm
Regardless, for that to be true, your "most part" and "things that really matter" should exclude, at the very least: polygamy; the withholding of the priesthood from black members; blood atonement; the status of the word "Mormon" as a suitable moniker for members.
Those things do matter, but it took time and understanding to resolve these issues at least to the point where they no longer play an active role in whether or not the core tenets of the gospel are true and ought to be paid serious attention to.
malkie wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:25 pm
With regards to God withdrawing himself and authority from the church, I think you would need to demonstrate in some way (besides testimony) that he both gave and did not subsequently remove said authority.
I think that at the end of the day religion and Mormonism in particular in this instance are experiential. As one immerses themselves in the church and living the gospel, practicing prayerful behavior, reading scriptures, etc., one either does or doesn’t receive a ‘witness’ as to whether or not God is in the church leading and guiding its leaders. I don’t think that same witness or realization can come from the outside looking in while at the same time being antagonistic.

I think that the same could be said by adherents to any religious tradition in which God plays a core role in the practice of faith. It could be said that God is in and through all things that lead towards greater light, knowledge, and goodness.

The church and its emphasis on temple worthiness and participation in ordinances of salvation/exaltation definitely fits in with that view of God. God is bigger than the LDS Church, but that doesn’t negate the ‘authority’ the church has to do certain things in the grand scheme of things. But again, the ‘testimony’ of whether that is true becomes more experiential than intellectually verifiable. Especially over time.

In fact, knowing that the church is true through experience IN the church and LIVING the gospel fits in well with “I KNOW the church is true” testimonies heard at any fast and testimony meeting.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/know

1b (3)

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:52 pm
I have seen hundreds of people bear "I know X" testimony in church meetings.

It is self deception through repetition.

Only lying if they internally have doubts. And I know many do.

The best testimony I ever heard was a young man, a few years ago in my ward. He got up and said "I don't know X is true, but I want to believe because Y."
A testimony doesn’t have to be a perfect representation of the perfect testimony. Only perfect within the sphere in which it is given.

And within that realm, it IS perfect in that time and place. We can only do the best we can do at a particular place and time.

Thankfully, you’re not the judge of whether or not a given testimony is acceptable to the Lord. 😉

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:44 pm
People on the fringes who are cautious about bearing their own testimony might find comfort in explanations like this, but its not sustainable for the average saint, who won't see the point of accepting the possibility that saying "I know" is never the case and not possible. Take the over-exuberant love analogy, that only works if the participant is not self-aware that their love devotion is over exuberant.
I don’t think we ought to be the judge of what others do or do not know. Especially if that knowledge comes through experiential means as I mentioned a couple of posts ago.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

JohnW wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:23 am
Yeah, I wonder if each person who bears their testimony has a different idea of what it means to say, "I know the church is true." As mentioned, testimony tends to be fairly personal. I think most people understand that a testimony is an expression of their own experience, even if there are the periodic few who try to strong arm the congregation with their testimony.

In my own case, I like to think more of the verb true and not the adjective. It doesn't fit perfectly, but it helps me. When we are building a house and true a door or a wall, we make it have right angles. We bring it into alignment with the house plans. We never get it exactly right, but we get it close enough for the purposes of the house plans. If we build everything true, then at the end of the process we get a nice, safe house, assuming the plans were any good. If we aren't true to the plans, we get an unsafe structure.

Is the church true to the gospel of Jesus Christ? Does it bring us into alignment with the truths found there? Are the truths of the gospel even any good? In my case, those are the questions I'm answering when I say, "I know the church is true." I'm not exactly sure how all the gospel truths are captured in the church. I'm not even exactly sure which truths found in the gospel are good. All I know, in my case, was that through the vehicle of the church I came to know God. It had to have been true, because at the end of the process, I have a relationship with God, even if that relationship can sometimes be frustrating. During it all, I somehow had enough faith to continue on even though I couldn't explain all the issues still lying around.

Yeah, maybe this way to articulate the concept of testimony is non-standard, but I think many people have an underlying understanding of some of this process when they bear their testimony. At least that has been my experience.
This fits in with what I’m saying. Thanks for sharing this.

Regards,
MG
Post Reply