Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

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MG 2.0
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

IHAQ wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:32 am
JohnW wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:23 am
It had to have been true, because at the end of the process, I have a relationship with God, even if that relationship can sometimes be frustrating.
On that basis, all religions with a God are true.
In a certain sense/respect they are. Watching the funeral services at St. George Cathedral yesterday for the Queen was evidence of that.

God’s Spirit was there. He was ‘true’ to the faith and humble petitions presented by the leaders and congregants there.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:44 pm
JohnW wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:33 am


Yeah, I think that is part of what I'm alluding to when I say my relationship with God is sometimes frustrating.
Talking to yourself and expecting magical results would be frustrating. So that makes sense.

There are times when it seems like nothing can be more real than my relationship with God. There are other times when I wonder if I haven't just made it all up in my mind. When I was going through graduate school, I almost became an atheist, so this topic tends to be an extra sensitive one for me, a little like an old wound that aches periodically.
Gotcha. You almost got there. Maybe someday
Or not. It can go both ways. I can relate to what he has experienced.

Regards,
MG
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sock puppet
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by sock puppet »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:43 pm
malkie wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:25 pm
Regardless, for that to be true, your "most part" and "things that really matter" should exclude, at the very least: polygamy; the withholding of the priesthood from black members; blood atonement; the status of the word "Mormon" as a suitable moniker for members.
Those things do matter, but it took time and understanding to resolve these issues at least to the point where they no longer play an active role in whether or not the core tenets of the gospel are true and ought to be paid serious attention to.
[snip]
Regards,
MG
The new and everlasting covenant, which Joseph Smith pronounced and is now part of LDS canon as necessary for exaltation and avoid damnation, "no longer play(s) an active role in whether or not the core tenets of the gospel are true?

Blood atonement (D&C 42:18-19)--necessary for redemption from certain sins.

Are you saying that these pronouncements of revelations "from the Lord", and the fact that in 1947 the First Presidency said the exclusion of blacks from the priesthood and temples was a direct commanment from the Lord, are not worth paying serious attention to?
"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal." Groucho Marx
"The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie." Mark Twain
The best lack all conviction, while the worst//Are full of passionate intensity." Yeats
MG 2.0
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

sock puppet wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:19 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:43 pm


Those things do matter, but it took time and understanding to resolve these issues at least to the point where they no longer play an active role in whether or not the core tenets of the gospel are true and ought to be paid serious attention to.
[snip]
Regards,
MG
The new and everlasting covenant, which Joseph Smith pronounced and is now part of LDS canon as necessary for exaltation and avoid damnation, "no longer play(s) an active role in whether or not the core tenets of the gospel are true?
The sealing power described in the New Testament is a core tenet of the gospel. That power is exercised in the church today. How it is manifest and exercised has gone through a line upon line precept upon precept evolutionary process.
sock puppet wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:19 pm
Blood atonement (D&C 42:18-19)--necessary for redemption from certain sins.
Ultimately we are responsible for and will have to pay “the uttermost farthing” for those sins which cannot be atoned for by Christ’s Atonement. Brigham Young and some of his Wild West sidekicks may have decided to ‘jump the gun’ and enforce this doctrine in the here and now rather than the hereafter.

The doctrine of accountability is now understood to have specific ramifications, some in this life and some in the hereafter. Some early saints misunderstood this. Line upon line and precept upon precept brought us greater understanding.

And understanding matters.

https://askgramps.org/did-christs-atone ... of-murder/
sock puppet wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:19 pm
Are you saying that these pronouncements of revelations "from the Lord", and the fact that in 1947 the First Presidency said the exclusion of blacks from the priesthood and temples was a direct commanment from the Lord, are not worth paying serious attention to?
No. But I am saying that these issues and others are not ‘deal breakers’ in observing and keeping the commandments as we have them in our church canon today and keeping to the covenant path of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:48 pm

The sealing power described in the New Testament is a core tenet of the gospel. That power is exercised in the church today. How it is manifest and exercised has gone through a line upon line precept upon precept evolutionary process.
Or, Joseph meant the new and everlasting covenant was polygamy and the current Mormon church is in apostasy for abandoning it and rationalizing that abandonment.

The fun part is there’s no difference now between Catholicism and the restoration. They have both changed so much that they are no longer true to the original religion.
MG 2.0
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:53 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:48 pm

The sealing power described in the New Testament is a core tenet of the gospel. That power is exercised in the church today. How it is manifest and exercised has gone through a line upon line precept upon precept evolutionary process.
Or, Joseph meant the new and everlasting covenant was polygamy and the current Mormon church is in apostasy for abandoning it and rationalizing that abandonment.

The fun part is there’s no difference now between Catholicism and the restoration. They have both changed so much that they are no longer true to the original religion.
Yes, they have both changed along the way in certain respects. What matters at the end of the day is which church has Christ’s authority…assuming one of them does.

The Pope receives a phone call...

...and on the other side is Jesus. Jesus says that now is the time, the Second Coming is upon humanity, and that he is letting all his followers know about this, and he thought he should give the Pope, a devout follower, a call. Jesus also tells the Pope He has good news and bad news.

"What's the good news?" the Pope asks.

"Oh, I'm currently at the place where the few of my earthly followers got it all right. We are setting up the base of operations here."

"Fantastic!" the Pope exclaims, thinking Jesus is already in the Vatican. "What is the bad news?"

"Well you see..." Jesus says, "I'm calling from Salt Lake City..."

https://upjoke.com/salt-lake-city-jokes
Regards,
MG
dastardly stem
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:04 pm

Or not. It can go both ways. I can relate to what he has experienced.

Regards,
MG
What can go both ways? Are you saying it's possible God is inside JohnW or you? Sure. It's possible. The likelihood seems to shrink at each investigation though. If it is God, let's consider. Consider with me right now it's quite likely there is a child suffering, headed toward death, through disease, or violence. God could stop it. Let's say this person is unaware of your God. Is it more likely that God would favor you or JohnW in appearing inside you to bless you or make you feel good, while suffering happens for many others? If God is good it feels less likely the feelings or impressions, hopes or desires you interpret as God is really God. Or it could be God doesn't care. He wants good for you and JohnW but wants bad for others? That latter feels plausible since before he started this all he apparently conceived of a hell of whatever sort to toss people into.

A couple other considerations. Perhaps God has a particular plan for an unbelieving child who suffers and whose life is cut short. Perhaps. Perhaps God will bless this child beyond measure. If so, then what would be the need for anyone to believe in him? Or let's consider God really needs this child to suffer in his life because it's what God has deemed necessary for this child to learn or grow from in eternity. I suppose that's possible to. He wishes MG to feel good about his existence but simultaneously wishes a child to endure intense suffering because it gives this child a chance to learn something. The problem here is, of course, if God needs a child to learn here why eternity? Eternity is plenty of time and space to learn everything. So it appears the suffering here is useless.

Anyway, it's interesting. I don't know if you or JohnW would have anything to say on that, but if you do, I'd be happy to hear it.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Rivendale
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by Rivendale »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:48 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:12 am
“I know the Church is true.”=“My faith in this Church is rewarded with confirming experiences.”
That’s a great way to put it. They’re typically talking about the personal revelation they have received. Or a strong impression felt.

I don’t think anyone means “I have read Daniel Peterson’s apologetics and Baysean reasoning which convinced me the church is true.”
And the placebo effect only reinforces the confirming experiences. Unfortunately the placebo effect sets forth a domino effect that further impacts future decisions. Believing things that are untrue despite the placebo effect have their consequences.
MG 2.0
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:13 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:04 pm

Or not. It can go both ways. I can relate to what he has experienced.

Regards,
MG
What can go both ways?
Life trajectory of belief in God vs.not. I’ve experienced both trajectories also. Those trajectories often have off ramps and on ramps as one moves along the freeway of life. Visit here, visit there. Check out the sights/scenery and then either move on/move past or stay put in one location or another.

There are general trajectories and then more specific. The freeway, the off ramps, the side streets, the dead ends…and ramps to get back on the freeway in general trajectory towards where one chooses to go.

God belief is a general trajectory. It’s headed in a certain direction. God disbelief is a general trajectory. Both provide opportunities to simply stay on the freeway towards the chosen destination/direction or to take off ramps and side streets…and dead ends.

That’s life in a world in which the GPS is rather flaky and difficult to receive the signal at times. 😉

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:13 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:04 pm

Or not. It can go both ways. I can relate to what he has experienced.

Regards,
MG
Consider with me right now it's quite likely there is a child suffering, headed toward death, through disease, or violence.
And it could be right within your own family or circle of acquaintances. It doesn’t seem that God plays favorites.

Regards,
MG
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