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LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:15 pm
by drumdude
TLDR: Church emailed me and said it was their right to hold my information, and my request for the erasure of my information is in "derogation of their rights"
So I resigned almost a month ago, and requested my children be removed. Because I'm in the UK I did a GDPR request, while simultaneously removing my consent to contact from local leadership.
Spouse has not yet decided about records removal due to family issues on his side, but this was actually great as he still has LDS tools access and checked when they said I was officially deleted. Spoiler alert, I wasn't. My account was removed but my name, date of birth, and marriage date all remained on my kids (also not deleted) and Spouse's account. I replied asking for it's removal, and got the below email back:
Dear Tigeraffe,
Thank you for your email of August 23, 2022. As we have explained, as a result of your membership resignation we do not hold personal information about you, and information about your former affiliation with the Church is not held by or accessible to leaders or congregations in the United Kingdom. Nor is it accessible elsewhere in Europe.
While no information is held by us, limited historical information is held by the Church in the United States. This information is held in a secure and static restricted-access file and is not otherwise subject to access or processing. The maintenance of this limited information is a matter of doctrinal importance to the Church and a matter of historical fact, which legally justifies such retention.
While we have removed your membership record, the Church has not deleted the reference to you in the membership records of your spouse and children. Family relationships are central to Church teachings, and the maintenance of information identifying the connection between parents and children is a matter of fundamental religious belief and doctrinal importance, as well as being historical fact and publicly known. Therefore, erasure, as you request, would be in derogation of the rights not only of the persons whose records would be affected, but also of the Church.
For additional questions regarding your children’s records, please contact [
ConfidentialRecords@ChurchofJesusChrist.org](mailto:
ConfidentialRecords@ChurchofJesusChrist.org).
Sincerely,
Data Privacy Office Europe
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Great Britain)
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... hey_never/
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:48 pm
by toon
Does the GDPR really require that? What the following situations:
1.Individual defaults on loan and has credit cancelled. Individual makes GDPR request and then applies for new loan. Does the creditor have to "forget" its prior business relations with that individual?
2.Employee is fired for sexual harassment. Makes GDPR request. The applies for job with same company 10 years later, after complete turnover in HR.
3.Individual resigns or is excommunicated from Church after having confessed to sexually molesting children. Make GDPR request. Individual is rebaptized in another ward. How will the Church know that the person is worthy of baptism and, even if so, that the person should never be assigned to work with children.[/list]
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:00 pm
by drumdude
toon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:48 pm
Does the GDPR really require that? What the following situations:
1.Individual defaults on loan and has credit cancelled. Individual makes GDPR request and then applies for new loan. Does the creditor have to "forget" its prior business relations with that individual?
2.Employee is fired for sexual harassment. Makes GDPR request. The applies for job with same company 10 years later, after complete turnover in HR.
3.Individual resigns or is excommunicated from Church after having confessed to sexually molesting children. Make GDPR request. Individual is rebaptized in another ward. How will the Church know that the person is worthy of baptism and, even if so, that the person should never be assigned to work with children.[/list]
I think it’s a fundamental axiom that no one understands what exactly the GDPR requires. It’s been a mess for most websites to comply with.
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 pm
by Doctor Steuss
If I'm understanding this right, it sounds like they just made him a prime missionary target, as far as (local) church records go.
His wife and children are members, and he's a never-mo.
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:23 pm
by Res Ipsa
Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 pm
If I'm understanding this right, it sounds like they just made him a prime missionary target, as far as (local) church records go.
His wife and children are members, and he's a never-mo.
I think he said he resigned.
This sounds like a full-employment act for lawyers. There are rules for private information sent out of country, so I'm not sure the organization in England is on as solid ground as the data officer seems to think. Maybe there's precedent somewhere. The right is described as a right to erasure (fka right to be forgotten), so I'm not sure the law cares about the U.S. organization's doctrinal interests.
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:56 pm
by Doctor Steuss
Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:23 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:10 pm
If I'm understanding this right, it sounds like they just made him a prime missionary target, as far as (local) church records go.
His wife and children are members, and he's a never-mo.
I think he said he resigned.
Sorry, I meant as far as local records go.
From the letter:
information about your former affiliation with the Church is not held by or accessible to leaders or congregations in the United Kingdom
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:16 pm
by Res Ipsa
Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:56 pm
Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:23 pm
I think he said he resigned.
Sorry, I meant as far as local records go.
From the letter:
information about your former affiliation with the Church is not held by or accessible to leaders or congregations in the United Kingdom
Ah, got it. Thanks.
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 10:49 am
by Dwight
I am not well versed on the deeper parts, but there are some things they can hold onto if they are required to. Say this person paid tithing, they need to keep records per the law in case there is an audit. Though under GDPR there is increased requirement to get rid of records once they are no longer needed. If the church performed the marriage they may have to keep those records. I believe this person is in the UK, but there are places you can get married in a European temple legally, but they can only keep that it was performed and such, they shouldn't be able to hold onto that the person was baptized or when (though it certainly could be inferred). There is some "well it's a US based church so what do they care" hand waving, but if they want to have a presence locally than they should obey the local laws. If they find that too onerous they are welcome to leave.
I'd also say that US based organizations moving things to the US is probably one of the favorite targets of politicians and organizations to go after. Though there is basically a warning system built-in that you kind of can claim ignorance and say you will fix things and buy yourself a long amount of time.
Side note: I'm pretty sure in most, if not all, European countries the support mission presidents receive for food and lodging should all be considered taxable income. It would otherwise be a huge tax loophole, so it's something that has been clamped down on. Ironically I also have strong reason to suspect that when the church made every mission cost the same through the missionary fund in order to appease the IRS, that it made lodging and food allowance become taxable income in many, if not all, European countries. Though I'm guessing every one is happy to look the other way.
Re: LDS church does not respect laws on the right to be forgotten
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:03 am
by IHAQ
toon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:48 pm
Does the GDPR really require that? What the following situations:
1.Individual defaults on loan and has credit cancelled. Individual makes GDPR request and then applies for new loan. Does the creditor have to "forget" its prior business relations with that individual?
2.Employee is fired for sexual harassment. Makes GDPR request. The applies for job with same company 10 years later, after complete turnover in HR.
3.Individual resigns or is excommunicated from Church after having confessed to sexually molesting children. Make GDPR request. Individual is rebaptized in another ward. How will the Church know that the person is worthy of baptism and, even if so, that the person should never be assigned to work with children.[/list]
Those seem like good questions.
I think the member needs to understand how the retained information will be used.
While we have removed your membership record, the Church has not deleted the reference to you in the membership records of your spouse and children. Family relationships are central to Church teachings, and the maintenance of information identifying the connection between parents and children is a matter of fundamental religious belief and doctrinal importance, as well as being historical fact and publicly known. Therefore, erasure, as you request, would be in derogation of the rights not only of the persons whose records would be affected, but also of the Church.
Does this mean the European resigned member is still included in the membership count?