Happy Sunday

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by MG 2.0 »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:34 pm
But it is totally slimy of you to claim in retrospect that we follow John in the fashion you sought to in your misguided way.
I followed Dehlin’s podcasts. They did help in the sense that I was able to use what I heard there along with everything else I was listening to and reading. As I said, I think in his beginning years his motives were somewhat praiseworthy in that he did entertain guests that had different viewpoints. Later he ended up with more critics because those that were more or less apologetic in their approach became somewhat fearful that their church status might be compromised. Especially after John was excommunicated.

It was sort of a Catch-22.

So nowadays his podcasts, unless I’m mistaken, lean towards a more orthodox negative slant on the church and its leaders since he has a difficult time getting believers of different stripes on.

So yes, his ‘cash cow’ podcast has become dependent on his focus on the so called negative aspects of the church and its policies, etc.

To follow Dehlin’s podcast back in the early days was a somewhat different experience than than his later podcasts. Again, not all his fault.

The fact is, his income stream is dependent on the voice of the critics, on the whole, than those with different voices. And it is through listening to his podcasts nowadays that I would hazard a guess that there is a greater chance of listeners going the no religion religion route where back when I listened for a number of years there was more latitude given to different views. As a result, and along with reading and listening to other sources, I was able to come out the other side with my faith intact.

That may be a lot more difficult to do now. Things have become more narrowly focused towards antagonistic viewpoints, etc.

Am I wrong?

By the way, Kishkumen, if you insist on using pejorative words such as “slimy” I can’t stop you. But it doesn’t add to civil conversation. It subtracts. If that is your goal, then well…

Regards,
MG
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by Kishkumen »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:11 pm
I followed Dehlin’s podcasts. They did help in the sense that I was able to use what I heard there along with everything else I was listening to and reading. As I said, I think in his beginning years his motives were somewhat praiseworthy in that he did entertain guests that had different viewpoints. Later he ended up with more critics because those that were more or less apologetic in their approach became somewhat fearful that their church status might be compromised. Especially after John was excommunicated.
Yeah, that's the way the LDS Church deals with criticism. It does not act to correct the problem, which is real. It acts to silence and isolate the critic. In this case, the problem is that the crisis is just too real and too bad for that to work. Eventually, a Patrick Mason has to come on and do the thing that the LDS Church is incapable of doing. I respect Patrick Mason. I have absolutely no respect for what you are doing here, or for the cowardice that so many others are overcome by.
So nowadays his podcasts, unless I’m mistaken, lean towards a more orthodox negative slant on the church and its leaders since he has a difficult time getting believers of different stripes on.
I don't value or take seriously your judgments and assumptions about something you regularly smear and don't pay attention to.
So yes, his ‘cash cow’ podcast has become dependent on his focus on the so called negative aspects of the church and its policies, etc.
So, in other words, because a need is created by the failures of the LDS Church that cause suffering for many thousands of LDS people, you will criticize John for trying to meet that need and for supporting his family on the donations that come from his countless hours of hard work.

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way, Kishkumen, if you insist on using pejorative words such as “slimy” I can’t stop you. But it doesn’t add to civil conversation. It subtracts. If that is your goal, then well…

Regards,
MG
MG, when you are civil, I will take your calls for civility seriously. We will be watching for you to start being civil. And, pro tip, it takes more than not using words like slimy to be civil.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by MG 2.0 »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:02 pm
I think it is more of a joyless corporate enterprise that more or less, probably increasingly less, fills a hole in the modern middle class life.
Joyless? All in the eye of the beholder, right?

I would agree with you that as materialism and comfort become more and more the norm and commonplace that people tend to forget God and their dependence on Him for everything that they have.

That may be one of the reasons the church is growing faster in less developed areas of the world. People realize there is something more to life than their smart devices. 😉

And the church with its message of eternal families and salvation in the hereafter rises to the top of their consciousness rather than being suppressed by all the noise.

They experience joy.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by MG 2.0 »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:20 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:11 pm
I followed Dehlin’s podcasts. They did help in the sense that I was able to use what I heard there along with everything else I was listening to and reading. As I said, I think in his beginning years his motives were somewhat praiseworthy in that he did entertain guests that had different viewpoints. Later he ended up with more critics because those that were more or less apologetic in their approach became somewhat fearful that their church status might be compromised. Especially after John was excommunicated.
Yeah, that's the way the LDS Church deals with criticism. It does not act to correct the problem, which is real. It acts to silence and isolate the critic. In this case, the problem is that the crisis is just too real and too bad for that to work. Eventually, a Patrick Mason has to come on and do the thing that the LDS Church is incapable of doing. I respect Patrick Mason. I have absolutely no respect for what you are doing here, or for the cowardice that so many others are overcome by.
So nowadays his podcasts, unless I’m mistaken, lean towards a more orthodox negative slant on the church and its leaders since he has a difficult time getting believers of different stripes on.
I don't value or take seriously your judgments and assumptions about something you regularly smear and don't pay attention to.
So yes, his ‘cash cow’ podcast has become dependent on his focus on the so called negative aspects of the church and its policies, etc.
So, in other words, because a need is created by the failures of the LDS Church that cause suffering for many thousands of LDS people, you will criticize John for trying to meet that need and for supporting his family on the donations that come from his countless hours of hard work.

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
By the way, Kishkumen, if you insist on using pejorative words such as “slimy” I can’t stop you. But it doesn’t add to civil conversation. It subtracts. If that is your goal, then well…

Regards,
MG
MG, when you are civil, I will take your calls for civility seriously. We will be watching for you to start being civil. And, pro tip, it takes more than not using words like slimy to be civil.
I find it amazing that you either consciously or unconsciously hold yourself up as the standard of integrity and correct judgement. It’s interesting to observe.

It’s almost an ivory tower sort of thing.

Full of oneself.

“We will be watching…”

Give. Me. A. Break.

Done with you for now.

Have a good day sir.

Regards,
MG
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by Kishkumen »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:31 pm
Joyless? All in the eye of the beholder, right?

I would agree with you that as materialism and comfort become more and more the norm and commonplace that people tend to forget God and their dependence on Him for everything that they have.

That may be one of the reasons the church is growing faster in less developed areas of the world. People realize there is something more to life than their smart devices. 😉

And the church with its message of eternal families and salvation in the hereafter rises to the top of their consciousness rather than being suppressed by all the noise.

They experience joy.

Regards,
MG
It is a lot more complicated than that, obviously. I do agree with you that materialism and comfort do contribute to people moving away from churches, but I don't think that means that lack of material things insures that people seek the LDS Church because they will reliably find joy there.

I think the immediate message, the missionary discussions, promises something that sounds joyful. So, is there no joy at the outset? No joy ever? No, of course not. But the joy usually comes in spite of the organization that uses the message to attract new income streams, not really because of it.

Most of us have seen it. We wonder, why, after so long, does nothing more come of the LDS experience? Why does it increasingly come to seem like a monotonous grind? If you say "Because you are too materialistic," then you failed the quiz. The LDS Church should function to bring people an increase of joy and intelligence as they continue on the "covenant path." For an increasingly large number of people, it does not.

You can join the LDS Church in blaming the people for this problem, or you can recognize that the LDS Church itself must share responsibility for the failure.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by Kishkumen »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:39 pm
I find it amazing that you either consciously or unconsciously hold yourself up as the standard of integrity and correct judgement. It’s interesting to observe.

It’s almost an ivory tower sort of thing.

Full of oneself.

“We will be watching…”

Give. Me. A. Break.

Done with you for now.

Have a good day sir.

Regards,
MG
Oh, you think there is no we on the board? Like "we" as in "all of us who have been watching MG's dog and pony show" of making excuses for the wonderful LDS Church and dumping on John Dehlin before a group of people who have been regularly critical of him in any case?

Yeah, we will be watching. Sorry that there is more than one person who has this impression of you. Sorry that a couple of us have advanced degrees. I doubt that makes much of a difference. Looks to me that there are plenty of blue collar types here who are just as smart and know just as well that you are full of crap and are not civil.

Talk about a lack of reflection. You tell me to be civil! LOL.

Yes, you did not start being civil in this post.

Just in case you were wondering.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Marcus
God
Posts: 5033
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by Marcus »

mg:
I am a defender of the faith.
okay.

also mg:
And you and others see yourselves as ‘defending the faith’ of secularism and/or disbelief in a benevolent God. I take issue with that...
huh? You take issue when you think others do what you say you do?
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:39 pm

...I find it amazing that [ I ] either consciously or unconsciously hold [my]self up as the standard of integrity and correct judgement.....
It has to be unconsciously. [ brackets by me.] If not, then it has to be parody.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by malkie »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:40 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:31 pm
Joyless? All in the eye of the beholder, right?

I would agree with you that as materialism and comfort become more and more the norm and commonplace that people tend to forget God and their dependence on Him for everything that they have.

That may be one of the reasons the church is growing faster in less developed areas of the world. People realize there is something more to life than their smart devices. 😉

And the church with its message of eternal families and salvation in the hereafter rises to the top of their consciousness rather than being suppressed by all the noise.

They experience joy.

Regards,
MG
It is a lot more complicated than that, obviously. I do agree with you that materialism and comfort do contribute to people moving away from churches, but I don't think that means that lack of material things insures that people seek the LDS Church because they will reliably find joy there.

I think the immediate message, the missionary discussions, promises something that sounds joyful. So, is there no joy at the outset? No joy ever? No, of course not. But the joy usually comes in spite of the organization that uses the message to attract new income streams, not really because of it.

Most of us have seen it. We wonder, why, after so long, does nothing more come of the LDS experience? Why does it increasingly come to seem like a monotonous grind? If you say "Because you are too materialistic," then you failed the quiz. The LDS Church should function to bring people an increase of joy and intelligence as they continue on the "covenant path." For an increasingly large number of people, it does not.

You can join the LDS Church in blaming the people for this problem, or you can recognize that the LDS Church itself must share responsibility for the failure.
GDammit, Reverend - have you been my confessor without my realizing it? This is twice in a short period of time now that you have crystalized my feelings about something, and put them into words more clearly than I had been able to.

Many years ago I was a super-active LDS member.

Then something came up at work, deadlines were looming, and I started to work weekends as well as an already longer than 40 hour regular work week.

The first big crack in my beliefs came at that time when I realised that I simply didn't miss going to church in the way I thought I would and should. I started searching for what could make me feel that way. My search eventually led me to the website of Richard Packham, a retired teacher & lawyer. It was all downhill from there.

It has taken me a while, and reading the experiences of others, to see that it was almost like an pre-echo of Marie Kondo:
Marie Kondo wrote:The approach is rooted in a single question: Does this item spark joy? Identifying what sparks joy leads to a tidy [life] filled only with items you cherish. It’s also a path to self-discovery, mindful living and fulfillment.
The LDS church, which used to spark joy for me, no longer did so. It was as simple as that.

Perhaps I should have doubled down - no doubt some folks will tell me so - but to my mind that way can lead to insanity, especially in an organization where it is already difficult for some good people to ever feel good enough.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by Kishkumen »

malkie wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:18 am
GDammit, Reverend - have you been my confessor without my realizing it? This is twice in a short period of time now that you have crystalized my feelings about something, and put them into words more clearly than I had been able to.

Many years ago I was a super-active LDS member.

Then something came up at work, deadlines were looming, and I started to work weekends as well as an already longer than 40 hour regular work week.

The first big crack in my beliefs came at that time when I realised that I simply didn't miss going to church in the way I thought I would and should. I started searching for what could make me feel that way. My search eventually led me to the website of Richard Packham, a retired teacher & lawyer. It was all downhill from there.

It has taken me a while, and reading the experiences of others, to see that it was almost like an pre-echo of Marie Kondo:
Marie Kondo wrote:The approach is rooted in a single question: Does this item spark joy? Identifying what sparks joy leads to a tidy [life] filled only with items you cherish. It’s also a path to self-discovery, mindful living and fulfillment.
The LDS church, which used to spark joy for me, no longer did so. It was as simple as that.

Perhaps I should have doubled down - no doubt some folks will tell me so - but to my mind that way can lead to insanity, especially in an organization where it is already difficult for some good people to ever feel good enough.
Thank you for sharing that story from your life, malkie. Ι don’t recall reading it here before. Yes, I recall running into Packham’s website, too. I think I may have even run into the man himself once. Decent fellow.

What really got me thinking was, among other things, that Ronald Poelman talk on the Church and the Gospel. When I heard it, it resonated with me so powerfully, and I was really eager to go back to it again to be inspired. Then, I found the LDS Church had butchered it, inverted it, and the sense that something was terribly wrong left a mark that never left me. Something is terribly wrong. Priorities are out of place.

If you started to realize you didn’t need it, it’s not like the Church itself was unaware of the possibility. And they were scared as hell about it.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Happy Sunday

Post by malkie »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:07 am
...
Thank you for sharing that story from your life, malkie. Ι don’t recall reading it here before.
...
I was referring to a social media interaction in which you put into words a feeling I had been struggling to express.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Post Reply