Following the Sprit and Echolocation

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dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:19 pm

I think I may have asked you earlier in this thread but I’ll ask again if I haven’t already.

How would you suggest that this world, as it is, could change itself from night to day and become a Shangri-La?
It can't. There is no God or magic on naturalism, MG. We're here. We experience reality. I'm simply pointing out the problem with your beliefs, as I see it.
Poof! The evil…disease and all the rest…is gone.

And I haven’t seen any indication that you are able to come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how you might create a world from scratch consisting of independent beings along a wide range of differences and proclivities and yet have a ‘heaven on earth’.
You are missing the point again, MG. If there is no God, nobody can create any world from scratch. If there is a God, only he could. That is why your contradiction is so interesting to me. You think God can't create a world that does not have evil, but apparently, you hope to find yourself in a world someday that has no evil, a very world that God creates for you. Or something.
How would you create something other than the natural man. Assuming that we came into this world as independent sentient beings.
Again, are you trying to discredit your every belief here? If God can't, then how do you possibly think there's a heaven?
You’re not suggesting a world that starts off from scratch with millions/billions of clones are you?

Regards,
MG
I'm not suggesting much of anything. Is heaven nothing but a bunch of clones on your view? If you seriously think a world without evil would be useless or boring or impossible, then why do you believe in God at all?

As I keep point out, if your beliefs are true, it doesn't appear God is good anyway. So I suppose I see why you might really struggle with this contradiction. That God, in your beliefs, really needs to treat people as poorly as anyone could possibly treat another, as he supposedly does with sons of perdition, then it only makes sense that you struggle in accepting an idea that an all powerful God could create without causing evil.

Yes, I can't help but continue to point out your beliefs are troublesome.
Last edited by dastardly stem on Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
God
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:28 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:23 pm


That is so ‘out there’. I assume you are saying this because of your personal observations, and that’s fine…but have you considered that your views might be somewhat jaundiced and/or incomplete?

I wouldn’t recommend judging the “Mormon God” based upon not knowing all the facts. You do agree that as humans we see through a glass darkly, yes?

How could our creator be anything but a loving and compassionate God?

I agree with John W that God may not have the power to stop evil in the world. I’ve given some of my reasons for why I believe this to be so earlier on this thread.

Regards,
MG
I think you are missing my point. I don't think what I said is "out there" at all. And if you read what I actually said, you'll find that it has nothing at all to do with my judging god. I don't believe in god. I'm simply noting that if such a god exists, he likely has characteristics that are beyond our ken, and that we have no warrant for expecting them to be exercised for our ultimate benefit.

If anything, I'd say that your apparent suggestion that "our creator [could not] be anything but a loving and compassionate God" to be rather a strange assumption. How could you possibly know?

If I remember correctly, you have been OK with the idea that god's ways are not our ways. But is this true only on the assumption that his ways are better than ours, and are ultimately for our good? Again, I'd say that you have no possible way of knowing. He could be totally pulling the wool over your eyes and you would be completely unaware.

How can you not see that? That you choose to believe otherwise does not make your case.
So then the question could be asked, so I will 😉, why would you prefer to visualize a God who is NOT loving, kind, and compassionate to His children? You seem to have a preference.

Hypothetically speaking, of course, as you don’t believe in God.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:29 pm
There is no God…
When we don’t have a common starting point the thread unravels pretty quickly. We’re running the 440 meter but going opposite directions on the track. We run right by each other on each lap we take.

If the race can only be run in ONE direction, one of us is either going to be disqualified and/or ultimately find that we wasted our time and efforts.

In the long run anyway. Make that a 10,000 meter.

It’s a long race. 🙂

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:29 pm

As I keep point out, if your beliefs are true, it doesn't appear God is good anyway. So I suppose I see why you might really struggle with this contradiction. That God, in your beliefs, really needs to treat people as poorly…
That’s your limited judgement. You are not able to see the end from the beginning.

Regards,
MG
malkie
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by malkie »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:34 pm
malkie wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:28 pm

I think you are missing my point. I don't think what I said is "out there" at all. And if you read what I actually said, you'll find that it has nothing at all to do with my judging god. I don't believe in god. I'm simply noting that if such a god exists, he likely has characteristics that are beyond our ken, and that we have no warrant for expecting them to be exercised for our ultimate benefit.

If anything, I'd say that your apparent suggestion that "our creator [could not] be anything but a loving and compassionate God" to be rather a strange assumption. How could you possibly know?

If I remember correctly, you have been OK with the idea that god's ways are not our ways. But is this true only on the assumption that his ways are better than ours, and are ultimately for our good? Again, I'd say that you have no possible way of knowing. He could be totally pulling the wool over your eyes and you would be completely unaware.

How can you not see that? That you choose to believe otherwise does not make your case.
So then the question could be asked, so I will 😉, why would you prefer to visualize a God who is NOT loving, kind, and compassionate to His children? You seem to have a preference.

Hypothetically speaking, of course, as you don’t believe in God.

Regards,
MG
Again, you seem to be missing the point. How do I seem to have a preference - please show me where I express that preference for an unkind god - when the thrust of my argument is that we (you and I and everyone else) cannot know?

I believe that you are the one showing a distinct preference! I'm just pointing out that you have demonstrated no rational basis for your preference.
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:51 pm


That’s your limited judgement. You are not able to see the end from the beginning.

Regards,
MG
Yes its my limited judgment. How is it wrong? if you say its wrong because you believe God will make everything right and nothing will trouble you, in the end, than great for you. But the conundrum still persists. If you want to trust God is all good, as malkie keeps pointing out is your assumption, and everything will be splendid. Fine. But that doesn't speak well to your beliefs. It doesn't justify the problems we see in your belief system. It simply means you have closed your eyes are ears to it and hope it'll all go away. Again with the, I need to escape reason and logic in order to believe or maintain belief thing. As it is, fine in a sense. But that doesn't bode well for your beliefs.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. If you have more to say I'm all ears. Looks like we ran it up the ladder and around in circles quite a bit.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:58 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:34 pm


So then the question could be asked, so I will 😉, why would you prefer to visualize a God who is NOT loving, kind, and compassionate to His children? You seem to have a preference.

Hypothetically speaking, of course, as you don’t believe in God.

Regards,
MG
Again, you seem to be missing the point. How do I seem to have a preference - please show me where I express that preference for an unkind god - when the thrust of my argument is that we (you and I and everyone else) cannot know?

I believe that you are the one showing a distinct preference! I'm just pointing out that you have demonstrated no rational basis for your preference.
Simply put. If God is our Father then just good ol’ common sense would tell us that He loves and cares about us. And that He has our long term best interests in mind.

The alternative just doesn’t make any sense. Unless you’re placing God in the same category as the Greek/Roman pantheon.

If you were to believe in God would you choose to believe in something other than a loving, kind, and compassionate God? Again, forgive me, but you seem to have a predisposition towards seeing God as a vengeful dictator kind of guy.

If you knew that a creator God was more likely to be loving and kind vs. hateful and vengeful would you be more likely to believe?

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:06 pm
If you want to trust God is all good, as malkie keeps pointing out is your assumption, and everything will be splendid. Fine. But that doesn't speak well to your beliefs. It doesn't justify the problems we see in your belief system.
I do trust that God is good. And I don’t see any contradictions in that belief and the views of God and the natural world I’ve been expressing throughout this thread.

Do want to continue beating a dead horse?😉

Regards,
MG
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:22 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:06 pm
If you want to trust God is all good, as malkie keeps pointing out is your assumption, and everything will be splendid. Fine. But that doesn't speak well to your beliefs. It doesn't justify the problems we see in your belief system.
I do trust that God is good. And I don’t see any contradictions in that belief and the views of God and the natural world I’ve been expressing throughout this thread.

Do want to continue beating a dead horse?😉

Regards,
MG
No, you're religious inclinations have been sufficiently trashed.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 1832
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:14 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:22 pm


I do trust that God is good. And I don’t see any contradictions in that belief and the views of God and the natural world I’ve been expressing throughout this thread.

Do want to continue beating a dead horse?😉

Regards,
MG
No, you're religious inclinations have been sufficiently trashed.
To each his own. Thanks for the conversation. It’s interesting to get into the mind of a disbeliever.

Regards,
MG
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