Following the Sprit and Echolocation

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MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:52 pm
JohnW wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:03 am


I don't think we can say that. I thought that was the three-pronged argument. We can certainly have a god who is benevolent or a race of alien overlords which is benevolent as long as they are relatively powerless to stop evil. The existence of evil doesn't preclude benevolence, just benevolence while at the same time having the capacity to stop evil. Of course, most people will say God, by definition, must have the power to stop evil in the world, but the God of Lds theology may not have that power, depending on how you define it. It isn't as simple as that, but I'll have to start another thread sometime on this topic, if people aren't already bored of the problem of evil here. It seems like it has come up quite a few times.
John, I wasn't thinking of that trichotomy at all.

It was simply an observation that, for all we know, even the Mormon god, if he exists, is not necessarily a good person(age). I can easily imagine circumstances under which that god is actually not doing what is best for us, his children, although he has fooled us into thinking that he is.
That is so ‘out there’. I assume you are saying this because of your personal observations, and that’s fine…but have you considered that your views might be somewhat jaundiced and/or incomplete?

I wouldn’t recommend judging the “Mormon God” based upon not knowing all the facts. You do agree that as humans we see through a glass darkly, yes?

How could our creator be anything but a loving and compassionate God?

I agree with John W that God may not have the power to stop evil in the world. I’ve given some of my reasons for why I believe this to be so earlier on this thread.

Regards,
MG
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:14 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:24 am
I figured imaging a blissful world of no evil was what heaven was imagined to be.
But it doesn’t just happen. Heaven IS what you MAKE it.

And that (heaven) is not life as we know it on this planet.

Overcoming evil and opposition through conscious choices and agency brings humanity closer to that heaven.

It seems as though we are angels in the rough. 🙂

Regards,
MG
Ahh so you can imagine such a world. Why were playing coy again, MG?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:23 pm


That is so ‘out there’. I assume you are saying this because of your personal observations, and that’s fine…but have you considered that your views might be somewhat jaundiced and/or incomplete?

I wouldn’t recommend judging the “Mormon God” based upon not knowing all the facts. You do agree that as humans we see through a glass darkly, yes?

How could our creator be anything but a loving and compassionate God?

I agree with John W that God may not have the power to stop evil in the world. I’ve given some of my reasons for why I believe this to be so earlier on this thread.

Regards,
MG
This kind of response only makes your beliefs appear less likely, MG. Resorting to mystery to vindicate God is simply a desperate move. Of course if your god is simply an imagined character you have in your head, then every critique, in your mind, means little due to your imagined mysterious character he must have.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:46 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:23 pm


That is so ‘out there’. I assume you are saying this because of your personal observations, and that’s fine…but have you considered that your views might be somewhat jaundiced and/or incomplete?

I wouldn’t recommend judging the “Mormon God” based upon not knowing all the facts. You do agree that as humans we see through a glass darkly, yes?

How could our creator be anything but a loving and compassionate God?

I agree with John W that God may not have the power to stop evil in the world. I’ve given some of my reasons for why I believe this to be so earlier on this thread.

Regards,
MG
This kind of response only makes your beliefs appear less likely, MG. Resorting to mystery to vindicate God is simply a desperate move. Of course if your god is simply an imagined character you have in your head, then every critique, in your mind, means little due to your imagined mysterious character he must have.
Mysterious…that God would love His children?

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:44 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:14 pm


But it doesn’t just happen. Heaven IS what you MAKE it.

And that (heaven) is not life as we know it on this planet.

Overcoming evil and opposition through conscious choices and agency brings humanity closer to that heaven.

It seems as though we are angels in the rough. 🙂

Regards,
MG
Ahh so you can imagine such a world.
Not here on earth. John Lennon was smoking something when he imagined it.

But to put the blame on God is disingenuous.

Regards,
MG
Dr Exiled
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:54 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:46 pm


This kind of response only makes your beliefs appear less likely, MG. Resorting to mystery to vindicate God is simply a desperate move. Of course if your god is simply an imagined character you have in your head, then every critique, in your mind, means little due to your imagined mysterious character he must have.
Mysterious…that God would love His children?

Regards,
MG
Assuming that there is a God, how do you know what he/she is? You haven't met this entity and have no idea what he/she is all about. You are simply left guessing and hoping that what you and your fellow believers imagine is true and that is based on an authoritarian model softened a little bit by the new testament. The point is that you and your compatriots are imagining this stuff.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:54 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:46 pm


This kind of response only makes your beliefs appear less likely, MG. Resorting to mystery to vindicate God is simply a desperate move. Of course if your god is simply an imagined character you have in your head, then every critique, in your mind, means little due to your imagined mysterious character he must have.
Mysterious…that God would love His children?

Regards,
MG
Of course all things considered on your beliefs. As I've pointed out a dozen or so times, it feels like, God has it in for some of his children, so much so, they become sons of perdition and are left to suffer eternally with the devil. As that may be, those who get saved have to live with that fact. "How is it God gave me salvation and yet delights in causing others to suffer for silly reasons? My own salvation now feels like I suffer such a confusing view of what's good". To me, your whole belief system is set up to reward selfishness and delight in the pain of others. That sounds terrible.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:56 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:44 pm


Ahh so you can imagine such a world.
Not here on earth. John Lennon was smoking something when he imagined it.

But to put the blame on God is disingenuous.

Regards,
MG
It seems you're stuck, MG. You state you imagine the world of heaven with no evil, but somehow you think you can't imagine a world with no evil. How is blaming God for the situation disingenuous? It's a genuine concern. Luckily all things point to there is no such a God as you imagine.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:05 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:56 pm


Not here on earth. John Lennon was smoking something when he imagined it.

But to put the blame on God is disingenuous.

Regards,
MG
It seems you're stuck, MG. You state you imagine the world of heaven with no evil, but somehow you think you can't imagine a world with no evil. How is blaming God for the situation disingenuous? It's a genuine concern. Luckily all things point to there is no such a God as you imagine.
I think I may have asked you earlier in this thread but I’ll ask again if I haven’t already.

How would you suggest that this world, as it is, could change itself from night to day and become a Shangri-La?

Poof! The evil…disease and all the rest…is gone.

And I haven’t seen any indication that you are able to come up with a reasonable suggestion as to how you might create a world from scratch consisting of independent beings along a wide range of differences and proclivities and yet have a ‘heaven on earth’.

How would you create something other than the natural man. Assuming that we came into this world as independent sentient beings.

You’re not suggesting a world that starts off from scratch with millions/billions of clones are you?

Regards,
MG
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malkie
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by malkie »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:23 pm
malkie wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:52 pm

John, I wasn't thinking of that trichotomy at all.

It was simply an observation that, for all we know, even the Mormon god, if he exists, is not necessarily a good person(age). I can easily imagine circumstances under which that god is actually not doing what is best for us, his children, although he has fooled us into thinking that he is.
That is so ‘out there’. I assume you are saying this because of your personal observations, and that’s fine…but have you considered that your views might be somewhat jaundiced and/or incomplete?

I wouldn’t recommend judging the “Mormon God” based upon not knowing all the facts. You do agree that as humans we see through a glass darkly, yes?

How could our creator be anything but a loving and compassionate God?

I agree with John W that God may not have the power to stop evil in the world. I’ve given some of my reasons for why I believe this to be so earlier on this thread.

Regards,
MG
I think you are missing my point. I don't think what I said is "out there" at all. And if you read what I actually said, you'll find that it has nothing at all to do with my judging god. I don't believe in god. I'm simply noting that if such a god exists, he likely has characteristics that are beyond our ken, and that we have no warrant for expecting them to be exercised for our ultimate benefit.

If anything, I'd say that your apparent suggestion that "our creator [could not] be anything but a loving and compassionate God" to be rather a strange assumption. How could you possibly know?

If I remember correctly, you have been OK with the idea that god's ways are not our ways. But is this true only on the assumption that his ways are better than ours, and are ultimately for our good? Again, I'd say that you have no possible way of knowing. He could be totally pulling the wool over your eyes and you would be completely unaware.

How can you not see that? That you choose to believe otherwise does not make your case.
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