Following the Sprit and Echolocation

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MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
My theory is those who believe in God and say they do so because of what's happening inside them, aren't giving sufficient reason to think there's a God. Additionally somehow that often grows to their religion is true, which is another can of worms to open up. Meaning we might be kind enough to grant someone's internal workings as giving reason to think there's a higher power, but that people tend to take their internal hopes and desires as God telling them their religion is true seems like quite a leap.

If, though, someone's internal workings are simply them deceiving themselves then personal claims of God being in them is really just people elevating their emotions, hopes, desires, and such to God. Nothing more. The data seems to favor that hypothesis over there really is a God hidden to us all but somehow inexplicably pops up in people's desires when they feel really compelled to find him there. It seems to me we're all too prone to confuse ourselves and trick ourselves to think our hopes and desires aren't the driver here. We too easily convince ourselves of silly things.
I don’t know find much to quibble with above except to say that it is not up to you or me to pass judgement on whether or not others are being deceived in ALL situations where the supernatural is being invoked.
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
With that said, i'd say the burden remains on those who believe and it feels too easily mistaken to use the ad populum fallacy (not that anyone has done that). We're all getting God beat into us our whole lives. Even kids raised in atheist homes get it beat upon them from all corners (I know, 'cause I ask my kids). Some try to argue that's just more proof of God, because why else would people accept the info getting beat into them? Or something. I don't find that a balanced perspective.
I think whatever burden there is resides within ourselves. It’s as the Apostle Paul said, something to the effect that we work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling. The onus is NOT on believers to work out the salvation of someone else. We are each individually accountable to the Creator.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by Marcus »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
...JohnW, you speak of some people being really good at spiritual things, which comes off too much as people being really good at convincing themselves of something they really want, it seems to me. I can't see how we go from people being good at convincing themselves of what they really want to be true to what they really want to be true is actually true....
Perfectly said, DStem. That really sums it up.
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:06 pm

I don’t know find much to quibble with above except to say that it is not up to you or me to pass judgement on whether or not others are being deceived in ALL situations where the supernatural is being invoked.
Who is it up to, then? If anyone claims that God is speaking to them we ought to have some way to test the claims. If we say, the way to test it is to pray and seek some inner witness, then how does anyone else test that? You see, if all we have is individuals telling us God told them something inside themselves, we may have a problem here. In the end, if there is no God all of those who think God witnessed to them are simply mistaken about how to find truth or something useful. They are deceiving themselves.
I think whatever burden there is resides within ourselves. It’s as the Apostle Paul said, something to the effect that we work out our OWN salvation with fear and trembling. The onus is NOT on believers to work out the salvation of someone else. We are each individually accountable to the Creator.

Regards,
MG
That's a big problem too, MG. If believers are only to care about themselves in order to secure salvation, then that is nothing more than God rewarding selfishness. According to biblical belief, God has a desire to hurt people in the end, because they don't believe. While on earth he gives them, at least in our day and time no, or next to no, reason to think He's even there. Of course if God doesn't care if we believe or not, then religions are just foolishness anyway. So on Mormonism there are those whom God has said will be sons of perdition, or will eternally suffer with the devil. God knew this before they were ever sent here--there's going to be some. Even if you reject the illogical notion that God doesn't know who it might be, it's still true he has every intention of hurting people eternally. And for what? Something about not accepting that His Spirit is telling us the truth? Or rejecting His plan? You're beliefs result in some pretty ugly repercussions. God, apparently, according to his plans, needs to hurt people eternally. But to you, you find something good in God? hmm..

You continue to go back to your assumption instead of answering why or how so others can find reason to believe. You seem to think if we assume God then we're better off, but fail to acknowledge that's not good reason. As I've pointed out to you before, fine if you wish to exit human reasoning and rationality to go play your own game in the corner. But that does little for others and it does less for the whole enterprise of rationality. I know, to you, as you've said, we need to exit the concept of human reason and rationality in order to believe in God. At that point, you've decided there's nothing to talk about, there's no truth to find. We just have to presuppose a God and Mormonism is true.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pm
While on earth he gives them, at least in our day and time no, or next to no, reason to think He's even there.
I think that in our day and time with the scientific tools we have there is more, not less, reason to believe in a supreme creator.

Much, if not all, of your grievances against God are really not that interesting if, in fact, there is a creator God. This God would have everything under His control and power in the final analysis. And if love for His creations is paramount the problems that you see become none issues in the eternal scheme of things. And just because you/I can’t wrap our minds around it doesn’t mean that God can’t.

It all comes down to ONE thing. Is there a creator God?

I think modernity has actually given us more reason to think so. And I’ve been through those reasons previously. I’m not going to rehash them. There are those that believe, for good reason, and those that disbelieve.

It ALWAYS comes down to that. And if there’s room for faith, I’m willing to step into that place.

But I do appreciate where you’re coming from. Years back as I was reading some Bart Ehrman and some other stuff by some of the popular atheists I went through a time of disorientation and discombobulation.

Regards,
MG
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JohnW
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by JohnW »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:25 am
I’ve always had what I refer to as Spiritual Autism.
Yeah, Spiritual Autism is an interesting concept. I grew up always being taught the spirit speaks to us through our emotions. It was sometime in my teenaged years that I finally realized the scripture which talks about the spirit speaking to our heart and mind, actually has to word mind there on purpose. That was helpful for me. I somehow glossed over that concept up to that point in my life. I definitely point it out to my kids.
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JohnW
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by JohnW »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
If, though, someone's internal workings are simply them deceiving themselves then personal claims of God being in them is really just people elevating their emotions, hopes, desires, and such to God. Nothing more. The data seems to favor that hypothesis over there really is a God hidden to us all but somehow inexplicably pops up in people's desires when they feel really compelled to find him there. It seems to me we're all too prone to confuse ourselves and trick ourselves to think our hopes and desires aren't the driver here. We too easily convince ourselves of silly things.
I think this paragraph sums up what I worry about on my bad days. I think I may have argued against your point harder before 2016. Now, I can't agree with you more that we as humans convince ourselves of silly things. I just worry you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If humans are demonstrably capable of believing silly things, that doesn't necessarily mean every belief that appears silly to us, must be false. It would just be suspect.
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JohnW
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by JohnW »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
JohnW, you speak of some people being really good at spiritual things, which comes off too much as people being really good at convincing themselves of something they really want, it seems to me. I can't see how we go from people being good at convincing themselves of what they really want to be true to what they really want to be true is actually true. And given very little if any reason to think they have a point otherwise only widens that huge gap more.
Yes. I definitely know people who will believe anything and go from weird fad to weird fad without any rational grounding. Every personality strength can be a weakness, I guess.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that some people seem to see things that I cannot see. This isn't new to me, because I'm not very socially adept. My wife and I can sit in a conversation with someone, and she understands the interaction on such a deeper level than me, even though we both received the same input information. When I was younger, it seemed like magic. Lots of other people could see these things called social cues that seemed like invisible communication. Of course, I have since gotten better at it, but it is still sometimes a struggle.

Yes, people convince themselves of craziness. That doesn't mean they are always tricking themselves or just making things up. Some very real things are extremely subtle . . . so subtle that they seem like magic to some of us. I've come to believe God and spirituality could easily live within those boundary conditions.
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JohnW
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by JohnW »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
. . .I can only see God as a monster--sitting idly by while people suffer . . .
Yeah, the problem of evil is a difficult one. Ten years ago, I thought I had this one completely solved, but that was one thing this community made me realize isn't as simple as I thought. I have lots of thoughts on this, but maybe I'll save it for later. I do think Latter-day Saint theology has just about the best starting point for any argument along these lines. Most members don't like it when I say this, but our God is somewhere between the Mainstream Christian version of God and the science fiction version of a race of super-advanced, benevolent alien overlords. In the first, the problem of evil is almost insurmountable; in the latter, it is almost not even a question. The reality, assuming the Latter-day Saint God exists, would be somewhere in the middle.

Anyway, thanks Dasterdly Stem. I enjoyed your thoughtful comments.
malkie
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by malkie »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:13 am
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:22 pm
. . .I can only see God as a monster--sitting idly by while people suffer . . .
Yeah, the problem of evil is a difficult one. Ten years ago, I thought I had this one completely solved, but that was one thing this community made me realize isn't as simple as I thought. I have lots of thoughts on this, but maybe I'll save it for later. I do think Latter-day Saint theology has just about the best starting point for any argument along these lines. Most members don't like it when I say this, but our God is somewhere between the Mainstream Christian version of God and the science fiction version of a race of super-advanced, benevolent alien overlords. In the first, the problem of evil is almost insurmountable; in the latter, it is almost not even a question. The reality, assuming the Latter-day Saint God exists, would be somewhere in the middle.

Anyway, thanks Dasterdly Stem. I enjoyed your thoughtful comments.
I would say that we have absolutely no reason to assume or expect that any god or god-like personage belonging to any religion, LDS included, is benevolent towards us humans.
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:53 pm
I think that in our day and time with the scientific tools we have there is more, not less, reason to believe in a supreme creator.
I mean, to each his own and all of that, but this just sounds silly to me. A couple thousand years ago it was so easy to believe in God, spooks, and ghouls because you had every reason to think they were real. Today, we actually have tools to determine if there was a ghost in your house or a spirit inside you. Everything points to your beliefs aren't real, MG. But again, as I said, and you said, to believe requires one to escape reason and logic.
Much, if not all, of your grievances against God are really not that interesting if, in fact, there is a creator God. This God would have everything under His control and power in the final analysis. And if love for His creations is paramount the problems that you see become none issues in the eternal scheme of things. And just because you/I can’t wrap our minds around it doesn’t mean that God can’t.
But he doesn't love many people. He hates them, if your religious proclivities are to be taken seriously...He wants to see them in eternal torture with the devil all because they would not accept his sneaky hidden Spirit. I get the desire to pretend no problems and trust in God, as he'll take care of it, but I don't see that as problems going away or that these problems aren't interesting. Its certainly fair to say we all see what we want to see in deciding what's interesting and what's not.
It all comes down to ONE thing. Is there a creator God?

I think modernity has actually given us more reason to think so. And I’ve been through those reasons previously. I’m not going to rehash them. There are those that believe, for good reason, and those that disbelieve.
All I've seen from you is an ability to wiggle out of answering questions or making a case. I do recall you listing a couple of traditional arguments for God, but as I recall they were from a perspective that doesn't accept LDS teachings on God and the arguments are made to support a God not like the LDS God a few ways. There was no fit. But, I can't convince ya otherwise, of course. You've already decided and you think people have to run from reason and logic to believe. Understandable all things considered. You have to just drop reasoning when it gets tough, let go and believe, if you want to believe. Not my thing, I've learned.
It ALWAYS comes down to that. And if there’s room for faith, I’m willing to step into that place.
Gotcha. I suppose in a sense there's room for pretty much anything as far as possibilities go. If that suits ya, great. That doesn't suit me, obviously.
But I do appreciate where you’re coming from. Years back as I was reading some Bart Ehrman and some other stuff by some of the popular atheists I went through a time of disorientation and discombobulation.

Regards,
MG
Thanks, MG. I know I come off harsh, but I find this stuff interesting and want to hear what believers say. I appreciate what you offer, to the extent you're willing to go.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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