Following the Sprit and Echolocation

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dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:47 am
I think this paragraph sums up what I worry about on my bad days. I think I may have argued against your point harder before 2016. Now, I can't agree with you more that we as humans convince ourselves of silly things. I just worry you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If humans are demonstrably capable of believing silly things, that doesn't necessarily mean every belief that appears silly to us, must be false. It would just be suspect.
I suppose the analogy of throwing out the baby with the bath water works for me. I was an LDS believer for a long time. I decided to embrace rationality and in so doing I lost all room for faith. But, it definitely works better for me, it seems. So I'm happy to have done it, as hard as it was. Worth it, as they say.
Yes. I definitely know people who will believe anything and go from weird fad to weird fad without any rational grounding. Every personality strength can be a weakness, I guess.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is that some people seem to see things that I cannot see. This isn't new to me, because I'm not very socially adept. My wife and I can sit in a conversation with someone, and she understands the interaction on such a deeper level than me, even though we both received the same input information. When I was younger, it seemed like magic. Lots of other people could see these things called social cues that seemed like invisible communication. Of course, I have since gotten better at it, but it is still sometimes a struggle.

Yes, people convince themselves of craziness. That doesn't mean they are always tricking themselves or just making things up. Some very real things are extremely subtle . . . so subtle that they seem like magic to some of us. I've come to believe God and spirituality could easily live within those boundary conditions.
I suppose if I am the one convinced of untrue things I too would feel compelled to think my particular beliefs aren't among the crazy things people convince themselves of. No offense here, just thinking there's plenty of room to see it both ways. One could think some beliefs are ok, even if unverified sufficiently, and even if others aren't ok. It's possible, after all. I tend to think we ought to utilize our modern tools better than that.
Yeah, the problem of evil is a difficult one. Ten years ago, I thought I had this one completely solved, but that was one thing this community made me realize isn't as simple as I thought. I have lots of thoughts on this, but maybe I'll save it for later. I do think Latter-day Saint theology has just about the best starting point for any argument along these lines. Most members don't like it when I say this, but our God is somewhere between the Mainstream Christian version of God and the science fiction version of a race of super-advanced, benevolent alien overlords. In the first, the problem of evil is almost insurmountable; in the latter, it is almost not even a question. The reality, assuming the Latter-day Saint God exists, would be somewhere in the middle.

Anyway, thanks Dasterdly Stem. I enjoyed your thoughtful comments.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the problem of evil. I recall thinking the LDS position is best suited to address the Euthyphro dilemma. I'm not so sure any more.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:22 pm

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the problem of evil. I recall thinking the LDS position is best suited to address the Euthyphro dilemma. I'm not so sure any more.
For me it’s become rather straightforward as I’ve thought about it over time.

The world is what it is.

Can YOU visualize it as being something otherwise? That is, if humans and other creatures inhabit a world which functions and exists from microbe to largest life forms with everything in between, how can ‘evil’ NOT exist?

Nature demands it.

What would your world of no evil look like? Would biological systems with viruses, fungi, and bacteria exist in your creation? If so, how would you manage their natural processes so as to prohibit any form of disease or infection?

If humans evolved over time how would you manage the natural impulses which are the common lot of mankind to fight over resources, sexual partners, etc.?

How would you create a world without ‘evil’? Would your man/woman not have emotions? And if they did, would you some how manage the expression of these emotions so that they are ALWAYS benevolent and do no harm towards oneself or others?

I’m interested in what your world of no evil would look like and how it would function from microbe to whale.

Regards,
MG
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:33 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:22 pm

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the problem of evil. I recall thinking the LDS position is best suited to address the Euthyphro dilemma. I'm not so sure any more.
For me it’s become rather straightforward as I’ve thought about it over time.

The world is what it is.

Can YOU visualize it as being something otherwise? That is, if humans and other creatures inhabit a world which functions and exists from microbe to largest life forms with everything in between, how can ‘evil’ NOT exist?

Nature demands it.

What would your world of no evil look like? Would biological systems with viruses, fungi, and bacteria exist in your creation? If so, how would you manage their natural processes so as to prohibit any form of disease or infection?

If humans evolved over time how would you manage the natural impulses which are the common lot of mankind to fight over resources, sexual partners, etc.?

How would you create a world without ‘evil’? Would your man/woman not have emotions? And if they did, would you some how manage the expression of these emotions so that they are ALWAYS benevolent and do no harm towards oneself or others?

I’m interested in what your world of no evil would look like and how it would function from microbe to whale.

Regards,
MG
Sounds like you're arguing for a purely naturalist's take. I'm not expecting a world of no evil. The problem is simply if there is evil and there is God, then God must have started something that caused evil. Is that good? who knows? But judging from what God has expressed according to religion and religious texts, He's not really about what's good anyway. As I said, Mormonism has it that He wants to send people to outer darkness so they are tortured for eternity all because they don't accept His Spirit, apparently. That's not good, MG. That's evil. Why do we assume God has any interest in humanity? Because he makes you feel good every so often?

The problem of evil gives good reason to think the world is bound to see evil, naturally, without God. It doesn't speak well to a benevolent character whose over all of this. To me, you're doing your unreasonable thing here.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:07 pm
Today, we actually have tools to determine if there… [is] a spirit inside you.
Do you know that for a fact? What are those tools? Are you positive those tools, such as they are, they can determine whether there is or isn’t a human spirit?

And if those tools are definitively able to do so, what is it exactly they’re looking for as they’re searching for and trying to pin down that Spirit of man? What type of substance/energy…exactly…are you going to find and measure?

What are you even looking for? Can you pin it down?

Is there a Spirit Geiger Counter?

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:42 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:33 pm


For me it’s become rather straightforward as I’ve thought about it over time.

The world is what it is.

Can YOU visualize it as being something otherwise? That is, if humans and other creatures inhabit a world which functions and exists from microbe to largest life forms with everything in between, how can ‘evil’ NOT exist?

Nature demands it.

What would your world of no evil look like? Would biological systems with viruses, fungi, and bacteria exist in your creation? If so, how would you manage their natural processes so as to prohibit any form of disease or infection?

If humans evolved over time how would you manage the natural impulses which are the common lot of mankind to fight over resources, sexual partners, etc.?

How would you create a world without ‘evil’? Would your man/woman not have emotions? And if they did, would you some how manage the expression of these emotions so that they are ALWAYS benevolent and do no harm towards oneself or others?

I’m interested in what your world of no evil would look like and how it would function from microbe to whale.

Regards,
MG
Sounds like you're arguing for a purely naturalist's take.
Are you proposing that God isn’t a naturalist? That He would create a world that operates in some other way than what we observe?

I think you avoided answering my questions.

The world is what it is. How would YOU create a world without ‘evil’?

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:46 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:07 pm
Today, we actually have tools to determine if there… [is] a spirit inside you.
Do you know that for a fact? What are those tools? Are you positive those tools, such as they are, they can determine whether there is or isn’t a human spirit?

And if those tools are definitively able to do so, what is it exactly they’re looking for as they’re searching for and trying to pin down that. Spirit of man? What type of substance/energy…exactly…are you going to find and measure?

What are you even looking for? Can you pin it down?

Is there a Spirit Geiger Counter?

Regards,
MG
hmm.. this is taking dstem out of context, it seems.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:07 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:53 pm
I think that in our day and time with the scientific tools we have there is more, not less, reason to believe in a supreme creator.
I mean, to each his own and all of that, but this just sounds silly to me. A couple thousand years ago it was so easy to believe in God, spooks, and ghouls because you had every reason to think they were real. Today, we actually have tools to determine if there was a ghost in your house or a spirit inside you. Everything points to your beliefs aren't real, MG. But again, as I said, and you said, to believe requires one to escape reason and logic.
you're making a specific claim here, mentalgymnast. what are "the scientific tools we have" that you think give reason to believe in the supernatural?
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:46 pm

Do you know that for a fact?
No. No one does. It's as if we're saying there is nothing there and we can't detect it. how would you propose to find a material spirit that no one can detect with all of our tools? It just so happens the likelihood of there being a material spirit, whatever that means, is quite low since there is nothing detected. The parsimonious conclusion is there is no spirit...we don't need the hypothesis to explain anything.
What are those tools? Are you positive those tools, such as they are, they can determine whether there is or isn’t a human spirit?
You've flipped the burden. The likelihood is there is no spirit since we have no reason to think there is.
And if those tools are definitively able to do so, what is it exactly they’re looking for as they’re searching for and trying to pin down that Spirit of man? What type of substance/energy…exactly…are you going to find and measure?

What are you even looking for? Can you pin it down?

Is there a Spirit Geiger Counter?

Regards,
MG
So traditional Christians accept an immaterial spirit, right? They tend to think there is a spirit but there is no substance to it. It's basically described as nothing. Mormons teach spirit is material. There is substance to that ghost inside each of us. No one has detected the material that is our spirit. At this point its simply an unnecessary explanation of something we don't need. What on the quantum level is spirit material?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:51 pm

Are you proposing that God isn’t a naturalist? That He would create a world that operates in some other way than what we observe?

I think you avoided answering my questions.

The world is what it is. How would YOU create a world without ‘evil’?

Regards,
MG
YOu have addressed approximatly 6 percent of the questions i"ve posed to you in our interactions. SOmetimes I point that out, but that I fail to answer a question you pose once is a problem? And I did answer your question. I wouldn't know what a world without evil would be. I'm pointing out that the existence of evil fits nicely with a natural world--a world without a supernatural God who infuses each of us with a supernatural spirit.

If you think God is simply playing in the natural world and can't do magic things like raise people from the dead, or some such thing..then great. We're in agreement more than I thought. God is powerless, apparently.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:06 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:46 pm

Do you know that for a fact?
No. No one does. It's as if we're saying there is nothing there and we can't detect it. how would you propose to find a material spirit that no one can detect with all of our tools? It just so happens the likelihood of there being a material spirit, whatever that means, is quite low since there is nothing detected. The parsimonious conclusion is there is no spirit...we don't need the hypothesis to explain anything.
What are those tools? Are you positive those tools, such as they are, they can determine whether there is or isn’t a human spirit?
You've flipped the burden. The likelihood is there is no spirit since we have no reason to think there is.
And if those tools are definitively able to do so, what is it exactly they’re looking for as they’re searching for and trying to pin down that Spirit of man? What type of substance/energy…exactly…are you going to find and measure?

What are you even looking for? Can you pin it down?

Is there a Spirit Geiger Counter?

Regards,
MG
So traditional Christians accept an immaterial spirit, right? They tend to think there is a spirit but there is no substance to it. It's basically described as nothing. Mormons teach spirit is material. There is substance to that ghost inside each of us. No one has detected the material that is our spirit. At this point its simply an unnecessary explanation of something we don't need. What on the quantum level is spirit material?
Earlier you said we had the tools to determine if there is a spirit in man. Apparently you are now agreeing that we don’t have those tools.

And since we don’t have the tools you then make a default assumption that man doesn’t have a spiritual nature at his/her core.

That’s a leap of faith.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Following the Sprit and Echolocation

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

I fail[ed] to answer a question you pose once is a problem?
In this instance, yes.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

I wouldn't know what a world without evil would be.
That’s critical to the whole conversation.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

I'm pointing out that the existence of evil fits nicely with a natural world--a world without a supernatural God who infuses each of us with a supernatural spirit.
And I’m pointing out that if there is a God there may have been no other way in order to create this world that we inhabit.

God may very well operate through natural law.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

If you think God is simply playing in the natural world…
I’m arguing that He created the natural world.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

…and can't do magic things like raise people from the dead, or some such thing..then great.
That’s NOT an argument I’m making.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

We're in agreement more than I thought.
Not on the point of God being a naturalist…and that this may be the ONLY choice for why we see the creation as it is WITH God as the author of that creation.
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:09 pm

God is powerless, apparently.
Not by a long shot.

Evil can be explained while still having belief/faith in a creator God.

Regards,
MG
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