Mars and the Problem of Pain

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JohnW
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Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by JohnW »

I promised a couple people in another thread to talk a bit about the problem of evil/pain. I've always thought the Latter-day Saint view on God makes this problem much easier to handle. I'd like to think my thoughts are a new way to look at an old problem (although I've used this analogy elsewhere), so hopefully it isn't too much of a disappointment.

There was much talk about sending humans to Mars a few years ago. It has died down a bit, but various countries are still prepping for that possibility. There was a fair amount of discussion on various technical challenges of such a trip, but a particularly fascinating problem that doesn't get quite as much discussion is the human problem. The round trip to Mars and back is roughly 2-3 years. Most of that time will be mind-numbingly boring. Think about the longest road trip you've ever taken, preferably with kids in the back seat. Now imagine extending that road trip to one year, with some of the astronauts taking the role of the backseat kid incessantly asking, "Are we there yet?" and other astronauts playing the role of the older brother that constantly pesters everyone.

The assumption is that NASA will have to hire more psychologist than they have ever needed to support a Mars mission. You can train an astronaut to be physically fit and mentally adept, but what do you do if they are a mental breakdown waiting to happen. Well, you can test that also. Most countries who are serious about a trip to Mars are supporting at least one Mars simulator. These are those little buildings out in the desert where people sit in close quarters for many months or sometimes longer than a year. Yes, they walk around the desert in full suits periodically to test operating procedures, but everyone knows one of the major tests is psychological in nature. When do people break down? What are the warning signs? How many times does Bill with the crooked teeth have to "borrow" Sally's toothbrush before she goes ballistic. Just kidding. That isn't an actual test they conduct . . . as far as I know.

The only problem with these simulators is that every person in the simulator knows it isn't real. They know that in most cases rescue is just minutes away. I know this is taking a couple steps into science fiction, but what if their memories were altered so they actually thought they were on Mars? That would make for an extremely realistic test. Of course, you would have to get the astronaut's consent beforehand, but at the end, not only would you know if the astronauts could handle a real trip, they would gain some real skills and endurance for such a trip.

Back to the original topic. The problem of pain or evil in a very loose nutshell says that if God were to exist and had sufficient power to reduce pain or combat evil and does not, then all else being equal, he cannot be benevolent, meaning he must not care about us. Well, in Latter-day Saint Theology all other things are not equal. This life is not an end, but a means to an end. God is trying to help us become like him in every sense of the word. This life is very much like a God simulation. We have been given a bunch of power to practice with. For example, there are a bunch of relatively helpless beings running around our houses all day long that wouldn't be able to withstand our wills, at least I have a bunch of them running around my house. This isn't really the thread to walk through all the similarities of a God simulator and a Mars simulator. The point is that there are some restrictions in place based on the objective of the simulation. A simulation is used when someone is trying to gain new skills or knowledge. They are placed in a controlled environment where they are shielded from some of the dangers of the real environment for either their own protection or the protection of others. Pilots train in flight simulators before they actually get in a real plane with passengers. Surgeons train on cadavers before cutting into living people.

If I were to go to boot camp, I would probably suffer quite a bit. If my Mom came with me and intervened by yelling at anyone who was causing me difficulties, I suspect I would not be prepared for combat.

God can't just intervene all the time here, because that would defeat the purpose of the simulation. We are here to gain the skills needed in a semi-protected location before we become a god ourselves and face the full force of evil and pain that the Universe apparently can throw at us. I used to think this argument was a slam dunk, but it isn't quite that easy. There is some pain and evil that just seems completely pointless or especially bad, like debilitating birth defects or serial killers or something along those lines. Yes, we must have some pain and evil in this world or we won't be able to face the Universe later. But really? Some things just seem like twisting the knife. I don't know if I have an answer. It must either be because the worst pain and evil we encounter here is still only a small portion of what a god would need to face, or the potential for us to really mess up things as a god is big enough that we need to be certain we can resist the worst situations without loosing it and throwing lightning bolts. I can only really ever speculate on that. I personally like to think that God didn't create evil or pain, he is just slowly exposing us to evil and pain in measured doses so we can eventually handle it. This analogy doesn't demand this view. You could consider God the creator of the evil and pain found in the simulation, and then we are back to square one.

Anyway, this isn't perfect by any means, but it helps me.
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by dastardly stem »

Hi johnW, I appreciate the explanation. Thanks for going there, as they say.

I’m curious how this explanation you offer is any different than the old time theodicy that god uses or needs evil to make us better?

I always figured lds thought had a better response to the problem of evil because for lds god didn’t create out of nothing. He wasn’t all there was before he created. Indeed he didn’t even create us, Lucifer or his followers. And if god lived as we do now on another world it’s also true evil already was before any of his acts of creation. Summing the problem as is it good because god wills it, or does god will it because it’s good, I think, helps highlight the explanation here. For lds god wills it because it’s good. He need not be sovereign as traditional Christianity requires. But problems arise when one considers various lds teachings, starting with Joseph’s claim for a sort of relativism:
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.
Not to be too simplistic for simplicity’s sake, but Joseph thought it was good for married older men to marry teenagers in some moments for certain people but thought it wrong in other moments for other people. To him good depended only on what god wanted, and god had the right to be arbitrary enough to both command against murder and support it depending on his will. Joseph and lds, at least of the past wouldn’t be alone here, biblical Christians would have to adopt the same rationale. God both commands murder and condemns it. I suppose the more liberal Christian’s who reject much of the Bible can say god commands only good. But if so, for them, that means the law of good is higher than he. That’s not a problem on lds thought at least not until you take the reasoning back to god’s ancestors.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by drumdude »

John,

Do you think that God created the simulation, or universe? Or does the simulation or universe exist independently of God?

My thinking on it is that Mormonism’s God is so limited that it is even not capable of ending all evil/pain, like he is in traditional Christianity.
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by Gadianton »

John wrote: I know this is taking a couple steps into science fiction, but what if their memories were altered so they actually thought they were on Mars? That would make for an extremely realistic test. Of course, you would have to get the astronaut's consent beforehand, but at the end, not only would you know if the astronauts could handle a real trip, they would gain some real skills and endurance for such a trip.
It's an ethical dilemma that would make for good dystopian sci-fi. But Imagine this series of plot twists:

- After years of hardship colonizing Mars, and nearly dead, Steve Cray, the football brainiac just watched the last of his team succumb to suffocation in the E12 crop sector. A stranger approaches with oxygen, and as Steve begins to revive, the stranger explains it's all a simulation by the legendary Dr. Zod.
- As Steve's comes to accept the stranger is telling the truth, he grows angry with Dr. Zod, and in his strengthening thoughts, plots to kill Zod.
- But then, as Steve bristles with holy revenge, the stranger shows the contract that Steve signed, and further, shows electronic correspondence between him and Zod proving Steve helped design the experiment and write the contract.
- Back in the real world, Steve struggles to bridge the two worlds of his mind. He comes to accept the experiment, although, having been on the receiving end, it's a resigned acceptance, rather than the enthusiastic embrace of his former self.
- Steve once again finds himself working actively within the top ranks of the company, and his matured self operates at the top tier of Fowler's Stages of Faith. And when his team from the simulation harvests the real E12 for the first time, it is a victory of the program, notwithstanding the pain of three team members getting eaten alive by Mars crickets.
- But then, just as all seems right again, a stranger approaches Steve and reveals Dr. Zod is an alien, and that the real Mars and all of its horrors, the earth and we as a species, and anything in the sky we'd ever reach was all a creation by Dr. Zod.

other points:

The problem of evil in our time is less about the brute compatibility of God and evil, but the problem with senseless evil. Imagine the Mars experiment designed with senseless horrors that can't possibly have any teaching value. How many babies must die horribly of dysentery for ever one Rusty M. who victoriously fathers a son in a luxurious getaway lodge after having been dealt a brutal hand of 8 daughters?

If the simulation is the logical conclusion of the most clear thinking people, then it wouldn't work, because just as the clearest thinking people become Mormon, accept the Mormon plan of salvation, and think through the thought experiments proving that this life is a simulation, the best and brightest, clearest thinking candidates of the Mars program will come to reason that they also are in a simulation.

Alternatively, supposing the Mars simulation is like our life on earth, it would be really weird for agents of the company to spend countless hours trying to convince participants that they were part of a simulation, and that only a simulation where they didn't know it was a simulation could prepare them for the real Mars. If life on earth is supposed to be an immersive character test, then it's pointless to have missionaries banging on the door constantly trying to convince you that it's a character test, and then live your life every day trying to convince yourself it's a character test and you have to do the right thing. If that works better, then instead of building the immersive Mars experiment, they would conduct a disinformation campaign convincing people that they were in a test, which emboldens them to take braver actions.
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by Rivendale »

I have a difficult time with moral probation to teach infinite ideals. I also have a problem with infinite intelligences buying into something they know could paralyze them forever.
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

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dastardly stem wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:03 am
Hi johnW, I appreciate the explanation. Thanks for going there, as they say.

I’m curious how this explanation you offer is any different than the old time theodicy that god uses or needs evil to make us better?

I always figured lds thought had a better response to the problem of evil because for lds god didn’t create out of nothing. He wasn’t all there was before he created. Indeed he didn’t even create us, Lucifer or his followers. And if god lived as we do now on another world it’s also true evil already was before any of his acts of creation. Summing the problem as is it good because god wills it, or does god will it because it’s good, I think, helps highlight the explanation here. For lds god wills it because it’s good. He need not be sovereign as traditional Christianity requires. But problems arise when one considers various lds teachings, starting with Joseph’s claim for a sort of relativism:
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.
Not to be too simplistic for simplicity’s sake, but Joseph thought it was good for married older men to marry teenagers in some moments for certain people but thought it wrong in other moments for other people. To him good depended only on what god wanted, and god had the right to be arbitrary enough to both command against murder and support it depending on his will. Joseph and lds, at least of the past wouldn’t be alone here, biblical Christians would have to adopt the same rationale. God both commands murder and condemns it. I suppose the more liberal Christian’s who reject much of the Bible can say god commands only good. But if so, for them, that means the law of good is higher than he. That’s not a problem on lds thought at least not until you take the reasoning back to god’s ancestors.
Yeah, reading over my post again, it may not be that clear. Yes, years ago I thought it was sufficient to believe along the same lines as you've mentioned that the God of Latter-day Saint theology doesn't have anything to do with the problem of evil because he didn't create any of it. As for pain, that isn't quite as easy to dismiss. But even if he didn't create it, that still leaves the problem of why doesn't he get rid of evil or pain. He must either be impotent or not benevolent. The simulation analogy is the comparison I make to allow me to think God might still have lots of power but his hands could be tied.

That also may be why someone could allow for God to command both things that appear good and evil. If his hands are ultimately tied due to the fact that he can't ruin the simulation/test, then he could command things that appear evil to us, but are actually required to maintain the environment. Yeah, I know, it doesn't help much. You could argue it just dismisses the whole problem in a similar way that Mainstream Christians do. It seems to help in my mind (maybe because he has an ultimate purpose and isn't just commanding things willy nilly), but that may not be the case for others.
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JohnW
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by JohnW »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:05 pm
John,

Do you think that God created the simulation, or universe? Or does the simulation or universe exist independently of God?

My thinking on it is that Mormonism’s God is so limited that it is even not capable of ending all evil/pain, like he is in traditional Christianity.
There could be at least two options. God could have created the environment where the simulation takes place, or the environment may already exist and he is just using that for his purposes. Let me explain a bit. Imagine a wilderness survivor expert who is trying to train other wilderness survivors. He could rent a warehouse and build an environment where he is in control of all the parameters. This way the trainees would have an environment where they could practice wilderness survival skills while at the same time being fairly safe from extreme danger. The second option is for the teacher to find an environment out in nature that would be considered a basic-level environment. Maybe a temperate forest without any large predators as opposed to a rainforest with lots of poisonous critters. The expert might even put a fence or something around the area to make sure large predators stay out. That way the trainees would have the same opportunity to learn, but any pain or evil in the environment isn't really the fault of the wilderness survivor expert. Now if the expert put deadly creatures in his warehouse, he might be at fault.

I think either option could be compatible with Lds theology. The word creation in the lexicon would just mean slightly different things.
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by Nomomo »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:05 pm
Do you think that God created the simulation, or universe? Or does the simulation or universe exist independently of God?
Beyond any shadow of doubt the Multiverse exists independently of an imaginary Sky Daddy!

Furthermore, the Multiverse/Cosmos is indifferent. To believe anything but that is to be believing in human created Myths. Which, of course nonsensical human created religious myths have no basis in reality if taken literally.

The Sky Daddy Does not exist in reality, and the Multiverse is indifferent.
Last edited by Nomomo on Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
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JohnW
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by JohnW »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 3:05 pm
John,

Do you think that God created the simulation, or universe? Or does the simulation or universe exist independently of God?

My thinking on it is that Mormonism’s God is so limited that it is even not capable of ending all evil/pain, like he is in traditional Christianity.
Now that I read your post again, you may be asking whether God is the creator of the universe or a member of that universe. I was going with the assumption that Lds theology demands that God is a member of that universe and did not create the basic laws. He is subject to those laws just as any of the rest of us are.I have always thought this was one of the primary differences between Mainstream Christianity and us. It would be interesting if you think Lds theology might allow for a more Mainstream Christian version of God (one that exists outside of the Universe). I am assuming this simulation exists within the larger Universe, although that may not be a requirement.
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Re: Mars and the Problem of Pain

Post by JohnW »

Rivendale wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:26 pm
I have a difficult time with moral probation to teach infinite ideals. I also have a problem with infinite intelligences buying into something they know could paralyze them forever.
Yeah, I hear you. According to Lds theology the stakes are so incredibility high that the only way I can think we would have agreed to something like this life is that we must have already been paralyzed. This is sort of mentioned in the theology. By the time we were done with our pre-Earth life, we were damned (in the progression stopped state). Those who agreed to come down here had the option to progress again. Those who didn't, remained damned. If it is a choice between eternal damnation and the possibility of eternal progression with some possibility of eternal damnation, I could see why I would have chosen the second option. Of course, I could see why people might have viewed it as a rigged system and refused to participate.

As far as the mortal probation to teach infinite ideals, I'm thinking it depends on the context. The main comparison I can think of is parenting. We all know the parent who sets up systems or scenarios to teach their kids how to work hard or to serve others. I think this is good. We also know parents who go to the extreme. They set up systems that are so manipulative that any lesson the kid might have learned is useless after all the damage from the manipulative system. I think the only question is which type is this mortal probation? Is it a fair system that balances teaching with the pain that comes from natural consequence, or is it highly manipulative that permanently damages people for petty reasons. I personally think the former, but I've seen enough people going through extreme heartache that I can't really blame them for seeing this life as the latter.
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