DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

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drumdude
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DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by drumdude »

“DCP” wrote: If I were placed on a cannibal island and given a task of civilizing its people,” Brigham is said to have remarked, “I should straightway build a theatre.”

Taken alone this seems like an innocent enough quote. How charming that brother Brigham loved the theatre so. But what else did Brigham say about civilizing people?
“Brigham Young” wrote: There is a curse on these aborigines of our country who roam the plains, and are so wild that you cannot tame them. They are of the house of Israel; they once had the Gospel delivered to them, they had oracles of truth; Jesus came and administered to them after his resurrection, and they received and delighted in the Gospel until the fourth generation, then they turned away and become so wicked that God cursed them with this dark and benighted and loathsome condition; and they want to sit on the ground in the dirt, and to live by hunting, and they cannot be civilized. And right upon this, I will say to our government if they could hear me, “You need never fight the Indians, but if you want to get rid of them try to civilize them.” How many were here when we came? At the Warm Springs, at this little grove where they would pitch their tents, we found perhaps three hundred Indians; but I do not suppose that there are three of that bank left alive now. There was another band a little south, another north, another further east; but I do not suppose there is one in ten, perhaps not one in a hundred, now alive of those who were here when we came. Did we kill them? No, we fed them. They would say, “We want just as fine flour as you have.” To Walker, the chief, whom all California and New Mexico dreaded, I said, “It will just as sure kill as the world, if you live as we live.” Said he, “I want as good as Brigham, I want to eat as he does.” Said I, “Eat then, but it will kill you.” I told the same to Arapeen, Walker’s brother; but they must eat and drink as the whites did, and I do not suppose that one in a hundred of those bands are alive. We brought their children into our families, and nursed and did everything for them it was possible to do for human beings, but die they would. Do not fight them, but treat them kindly. There will then be no stain on the Government, and it will get rid of them much quicker than by fighting them. They have got to be civilized, and there will be a remnant of them saved.” Brigham Young – Discourse given in the new Tabernacle on April 9, 1871.

I just cannot wait to see Daniel’s whitewashing in his upcoming film “Six Days in September.” I’m sure he will have a few token scenes showing Brigham Young’s “rough side” and will completely blow past an accurate portrait of the irredeemably racist man himself.
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

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I'll take that bet...
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Kishkumen
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by Kishkumen »

That Brigham. What a peach.
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by IHAQ »

“Upon the stage of a theater,” said Brigham, “can be represented in character, evil and its consequences, good and its happy results and rewards; the weakness and the follies of man, the magnanimity of virtue and the greatness of truth. The stage can be made to aid the pulpit in impressing upon the minds of a community an enlightened sense of a virtuous life, also a proper horror of the enormity of sin and a just dread of its consequences. The path of sin with its thorns and pitfalls, its gins and snares can be revealed, and how to shun it” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 243).
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... sland.html

Young is talking about using the theatre as a means of controlling the thoughts and actions of a population.
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by dastardly stem »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:02 am
“Upon the stage of a theater,” said Brigham, “can be represented in character, evil and its consequences, good and its happy results and rewards; the weakness and the follies of man, the magnanimity of virtue and the greatness of truth. The stage can be made to aid the pulpit in impressing upon the minds of a community an enlightened sense of a virtuous life, also a proper horror of the enormity of sin and a just dread of its consequences. The path of sin with its thorns and pitfalls, its gins and snares can be revealed, and how to shun it” (Discourses of Brigham Young, 243).
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... sland.html

Young is talking about using the theatre as a means of controlling the thoughts and actions of a population.
I don't blame DCP much on this. The poor dude is left trying to justify his belief, that he can't seem to escape, that BY is a prophet of God. he has to eek out a nice statement or two to make it work. I also am not so sure how the above lines from BY is talking about using the theatre as a means of controlling thoughts and actions. He seems to be saying the theatre is a good tool to help the populace creatively express virtues. I don't think that's an attempt to control, although we can't put a desire to control people past BY. As others have said, he was a peach.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Kishkumen
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by Kishkumen »

Yes, without Brigham being a prophet, which he clearly was not, at least in the Joseph Smith sense of what that meant, then what of the president of the LDS Church today?

Very obviously not a prophet.

I wish this were not a big deal to the LDS Church, but Brigham decided somewhere along the way that he was going to fashion himself as Joseph Smith's successor as prophet. He knew that he was not Smith's successor for years after Joseph died.

Why the change?

And, if it was clear to most people in the early years after Joseph Smith's assassination that Brigham was not really Joseph Smith's successor, they would have all been better off leaving it that way.

Because now when you go back and look at the history of the LDS Church as it was, and not as its propaganda makes it out to be, you see very starkly that it was some time before Brigham expressed his pretensions to be the prophet.

That being the case, why believe him? Why not just stick with the actual terms of the succession when the assassination occurred? The apostles were the caretakers of the church, the ones who had the authority to carry on with all of the ordinances, and there would be no prophet in the mold of Joseph Smith.

Because, really, it is so clearly obvious that Joseph Smith has no real successor in the LDS Church. The titles "prophet, seer, and revelator" may be held by others, but none of them have really performed those tasks except in the mildest or most metaphorical of senses.

Joseph Smith made every truly important contribution to the composition of Mormonism. No one else comes anywhere close to making the same kind, degree, or quality of contribution.

Joseph Smith was "THE PROPHET." The rest of these guys have been, at best, priesthood authorities that have kept the lights on and the trains running.

So, no, Brigham Young was not a prophet. His biggest doctrinal contribution, Adam-God, was a total flop, as it was clearly a misunderstanding of Joseph Smith's teachings that he decided to embellish in a ham-fisted way.

As was his wont.

To Brigham Young we owe the survival and growth of the largest branch of the Restoration and the proliferation of the rites of the temple. And that's nothing to sniffle at. It is a huge accomplishment.

But it doesn't make him a prophet.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:42 pm
Yes, without Brigham being a prophet, which he clearly was not, at least in the Joseph Smith sense of what that meant, then what of the president of the LDS Church today?

Very obviously not a prophet.

I wish this were not a big deal to the LDS Church, but Brigham decided somewhere along the way that he was going to fashion himself as Joseph Smith's successor as prophet. He knew that he was not Smith's successor for years after Joseph died.

Why the change?

And, if it was clear to most people in the early years after Joseph Smith's assassination that Brigham was not really Joseph Smith's successor, they would have all been better off leaving it that way.

Because now when you go back and look at the history of the LDS Church as it was, and not as its propaganda makes it out to be, you see very starkly that it was some time before Brigham expressed his pretensions to be the prophet.

That being the case, why believe him? Why not just stick with the actual terms of the succession when the assassination occurred? The apostles were the caretakers of the church, the ones who had the authority to carry on with all of the ordinances, and there would be no prophet in the mold of Joseph Smith.

Because, really, it is so clearly obvious that Joseph Smith has no real successor in the LDS Church. The titles "prophet, seer, and revelator" may be held by others, but none of them have really performed those tasks except in the mildest or most metaphorical of senses.

Joseph Smith made every truly important contribution to the composition of Mormonism. No one else comes anywhere close to making the same kind, degree, or quality of contribution.

Joseph Smith was "THE PROPHET." The rest of these guys have been, at best, priesthood authorities that have kept the lights on and the trains running.

So, no, Brigham Young was not a prophet. His biggest doctrinal contribution, Adam-God, was a total flop, as it was clearly a misunderstanding of Joseph Smith's teachings that he decided to embellish in a ham-fisted way.

As was his wont.

To Brigham Young we owe the survival and growth of the largest branch of the Restoration and the proliferation of the rites of the temple. And that's nothing to sniffle at. It is a huge accomplishment.

But it doesn't make him a prophet.
Excellent points. And they're going to be very hard for DCP to try and frame away in his new film.
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by huckelberry »

Brigham Young's speech on miraculously disappearing Indians sounds a bit garbled. So what happened beyond being pushed out of their home?

Is he claiming that they were fed which took away their ability to provide for themselves.(there may have been other factors limiting ability to provide for themselves?)
drumdude
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Re: DCP lauds Brigham Young’s comments on how to civilize

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:22 pm
Brigham Young's speech on miraculously disappearing Indians sounds a bit garbled. So what happened beyond being pushed out of their home?

Is he claiming that they were fed which took away their ability to provide for themselves.(there may have been other factors limiting ability to provide for themselves?)
He sounds a bit like Alex Jones in that quote. Rambling on about things he knows nothing about.

A genuine Prophet indeed.
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