Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:55 pm
So with the hell doctrine issue, I admittedly didn't read every word of every post. Just throwing in here as best I can.
I think that Christians who go back into the Old Testament and read about Tophet and the fires of Molech automatically attach that to Hell doctrine. I could be wrong and maybe I'm just judging based on what I used to think about it myself. (Oh, I just got an idea in real time, let me see if I can work that in.
)
So I think msnobody might have been thinking about indications in Biblical scripture which is why she confined her question to that in order to illicit a response from Kish (don't come for me, I didn't read everything) within the text of the Bible. He wasn't about doing that so it seems there was an impasse of some sort.
Anyway...well let's cut to the chase and go directly to The Revelation of John because I think that's what the Christian mind and study lead to though I can't speak for everyone. by the way, I have a strong aversion to pulling scripture out of context but for the sake of brevity here... KJV because it's what we generally have in common.
Chapter 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Chapter 21 now...
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
So...I don't get how death and hell could be cast into the lake of fire if, as some Christians read it, the lake of fire IS hell.
Keeping in mind that there are, I think,
three different views of The Revelation that one has available for interpretation.
Is The Revelation all metaphor? Is the lake of fire a reference to Tophet/Molech as John might have understood it?
I'll take it one step further, is John understanding this to mean that God is sacrificing his own children and if so, why is God doing what followers of Baal did?
I'm just throwing out my thoughts on this. Double spacing is always a sign of me thinking in real time trying to sort something out.
Thanks, Jersey. Revelation is a very difficult book, so much so, in fact, that even the Early Church Fathers did not agree on its fitness for the canon. Honestly, I have no idea what it means for death an hell to be cast into the lake of fire. If that is the second death, does this mean that everything cast into the lake of fire ceases to exist? Does hell then cease to exist? But the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are there for ever and ever?
And we have not even gotten to the Greek here. Maybe that would help.
But I will throw my hands in the air and admit that I simply do not read apocalyptic literature in a literal sense. Apocalyptic literature is very powerful, so I don’t see the need to throw it out, but it also causes a helluva lot of trouble, it seems to me. Almost makes me think Revelation should not have been included in the Bible after all. For many years I have seen this literature as having a very powerful personal impact that relates to things we do experience in our own small way as individual beings. There are times when reality seems thrown into chaos and the end of an age or a world is staring us in the face. Where does a person turn in the midst of these wrenching trials?
I imagine the author of the work going through that kind of trial and looking for divine comfort. On that level, I can relate.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow