Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

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dastardly stem
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by dastardly stem »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:15 am
i was raised in the lds church, as a Mormon, to believe Mormons mattered, and nonmormons...did not. This mindset was indoctrinated in me from birth, and even after i left the lds church, that training was incredibly difficult to dismiss. Think mentalgymnast, and his mindset. He holds the same opinions about "nonmembers" that i was raised with. It's clear that these are despicable assumptions, but they are bred into Mormons from birth. So of course Mormons believe their god loves them more. How could he not, when they are the only ones who are endowed by god with the truth? :roll:
To be clear, Marcus, many ex Christian’s say this same type of thing concerning their upbringing. While Mormons have their unique way of describing the situation I don’t see it as much different in the end, in this regard. I will add my parents we’re a different kind of Mormons and made specific points to demonstrate for me that everyone mattered and everyone is loved by god.

On this point I look back to my missionary days and without a doubt I walked away from interactions with many traditional christians with the message that they were sure I as a nonChristian, but Mormon, really did not matter or count. Oddly they may have ended our conversations feeling similarly.
of course, their version is a complete sham, but, those deeply imbedded in it find it incredibly difficult to leave. My heart goes out to them, in their seemingly impossible task.
Agreed.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by dastardly stem »

Hey Jersey Girl, I felt bad eating my lunch earlier with some friends realizing I didn't address your questions specifically when I responded in this thread earlier. I realize you deserve a response seeing as you asked me pointed questions. Here goes.
Jersey Girl wrote:
Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:32 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:21 pm

Likewise traditional Christians speaks as if God loves them more than any Mormon. Mormons are wrong. God lets them get tricked while they think they are really experiencing God. One day they'll know, but for most it'll be too late.
Huh? I don't recognize the Christians that you describe here as speaking as if God loves them more than any Mormon. Not even close.
Let me draw back to the thread and the OP. Nelson was quoted and summarized as saying:
Nelson states that “all those who have made a covenant with God have access to a special kind of love and mercy.” Then he describes what covenants he is referring to: baptism, temple endowment, a marital sealing in the temple. All of those require membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
And with that it was said, and I have no qualms about saying that it was rightly said, Nelson thinks "God loves Latter-day Saints more than others". In my more generalized reply I pointed out how many Christians have outright condemned Mormons, including yours truly back in the day, as basically non-believers who are condemned to hell. Which as I see it comes off as very similar to Nelson's point--true believers are blessed while those who are not believing correctly aren't so blessed with special kinds of love and mercy.

But, that may be too general, I also recalled William Lane Craig recently made an admission that sounded eeirly similar to Nelson's comments:
But I just mean a kind of fundamental assurance that one's faith is true. People often talk about this as the assurance of salvation, and I think that is the privilege of every born-again Christian. I hope that Kyle is more than just a nominal Christian, that he's really come to experience the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit and that he's indwelt and filled with the Holy Spirit because I think then that removes the huge epistemic bar that he thinks you need to get over in order to become a Christian.
Sounds similar, it seems. "Born-again Christians" are privileged by God to get an assurance of salvation--receiving the "regenerating power of the Holy Spirit" and that such true believers as "indwelt and filled with the Holy Spirit". I suppose we try and swap "born-again Christian" out with Mormon or Muslim, Craig would like object (indeed he has so objected). Just before this line Bill suggests speaking of his own conversion he realized "God loved me, he loved Bill Craig, and that I could come to know him and experience eternal life with God".

Craig a traditional Christian, if you will, thinks God privileges and witnesses of his love for those who agree with his religion. Nelson, a Mormon leader, thinks God gives access to a special kind of love and mercy from God, to those who agree with his religion. Seems similar. Both if questioned may back off and say God really loves everyone equally. But that's really just walking back what they said.
Can you share a more specific experience you've had with that type of interaction yourself where statements were made to that effect?

Have you ever gotten that vibe on these boards from me or others who identify as non-LDS Christian?
Nah...you and others are nice about it. I don't know what more to share on it. It seems like a pretty obvious idea.
Ftr, I do absolutely believe that LDS can experience God, know Jesus, and discern the leading of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as LDS refer to it in the language of their faith.

I wanted to get into the hell doctrine piece of this thread (reading it backwards as I often do) so I went to the beginning and found your post here. I'd appreciate it if you would answer the bolded questions I posed to you.
Thanks. Hopefully my answer fits well with what you are looking for.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
msnobody
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by msnobody »

I think non-LDS Christian’s could do a lot better job toward our Mormon neighbors, friends, acquaintances, etc. Non-members just about have to intrude into the lives of their Mormon acquaintances, which I think requires a good bit of stamina and endurance, and I think many who try, give up too soon. I’ve learned I can’t become frustrated with someone who can’t muster up belief in God. When my focus is on Him, that frees me up to love the person, not become frustrated, and wait on God’s timing. I suppose we often don’t have a high enough view of our God.

So, I don’t always do a good job of this. As some of you know, a few weeks ago, I got suddenly and unexpectedly angry with Mormonism, and rather than backing away from the discussion board like I normally would, I began to contend and wrestle with God over my fellow posters. My conversations with God went something like this. Why did you save me, send me, pour your love into my heart and make me want to pour that love out to others who don’t want You? The more weighty questions were, Why did you even save me? And, finally, Why did you do this to me? In a sense, I felt like I was hopping a boat to Joppa (maybe not quite in the same context). I was ready to give up on the people I care about. Maybe I secretly wished I’d get tossed overboard the DM boat.

I used to sort of see Philippians 1:3-6 as something that happened only after conversion. I think I now view it differently. Satan would be happy to leave people in a gospel that doesn’t save. I think God has already started, even pre-conversion, a work in people that He will carry it to completion.

Romans 8:26-27 states:
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Dear friends, you are prayed for, with the Spirit of God interceding with groanings too deep with words. Many of us are friends in real life. As believers, we suffer in this life, and we need you in the family of God.

Anyway, we wait patiently for God to bring the work He has started to completion. And, when I contend with God, He always tenderly and mercifully wins.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
MG 2.0
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by MG 2.0 »

IHAQ wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:19 am

There's no doubt Nelson thinks he's special. I'd be interested in seeing members and missionaries tell non members, friends and acquaintances that their Prophet has said God loves them more...
I’m glad that you’re not out knocking on doors representing the church.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:16 am
IHAQ wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:19 am

There's no doubt Nelson thinks he's special. I'd be interested in seeing members and missionaries tell non members, friends and acquaintances that their Prophet has said God loves them more...
I’m glad that you’re not out knocking on doors representing the church.

Regards,
MG
Really?
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:06 pm
...MG jumps in to troll...And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll
MG 2.0
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:34 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:16 am


I’m glad that you’re not out knocking on doors representing the church.

Regards,
MG
Really?
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:06 pm
...MG jumps in to troll...And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll
Then ignore, willya? 🙂

You have not been following your own advice. I would be more than happy to have you ignore me. 😁

If indeed I’m a simple troll, others will see right through it and stop feeding me. And yet, here we are.

I think there’s something else at play…

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:37 am
Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:34 am


Really?

Then ignore, willya? 🙂

You have not been following your own advice. I would be more than happy to have you ignore me. 😁

If indeed I’m a simple troll, others will see right through it and stop feeding me. And yet, here we are.

I think there’s something else at play…

Regards,
MG
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:06 pm
...MG jumps in to troll...And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by Dr Moore »

Meh. All the nonsensical circular gymnastics, for what? To convince the self not to trust their conscience? Pass, and ignore. Life is too short to put so much confidence in people who can’t be expected to value morality more than they value justifying their authority.
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by huckelberry »

malkie wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:35 am
None - but if we are talking about the "theology" of someone who is relatively ignorant about the Bible, and hears hellfire and damnation preached every Sunday, I'm not sure that that matters.


As far as I know (and I believe it, because it would represent an anachronism) no book in the Bible teaches hatred of Catholics. But lots of preachers in Scotland taught it; and their congregations ate it up, and accepted it as part of their religion. My dad used to say that there were few real Protestants in our home town, but there were lots of rabid anti-Catholics who wouldn't recognize Jesus' teachings if they met them in their soup.
Malkie, a good little quip about anti catholic passion.

If I found myself in a church preaching hellfire and damnation I would go home take a shower and go elsewhere.

Just my two cents because I do not know if God loves somepeople more than others. The Bible notes he liked David.
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Re: Nelson gives revelation that God loves Mormons more than others...

Post by huckelberry »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:22 am
looking for some specifics on these four views I consulted google,found":
http://exegeticaltools.com/2020/07/30/f ... evelation/

I view it through the idealist lens. I see fantasy imagery describing principals and patterns that happen in the world. It is to be a warning . There are repetitions in the book (cycles). Trying to see the future with it is a pointles effort resulting in cycles of confusion leading nowhere.
We may be very close to being on the same page here. Of course, most of what passes for my Christianity might be along the same lines. I seem to recall that you profess Christian faith, so you are probably more properly Christian than I am. I still have real problems with some teachings such as the incarnation of Christ. And that is a big one to have objections to.
Kishkumen ,I hope you do not mind if I find an invitation to expand a thought in your comment.

I suppose there may be some people who think John was watching a visual document of what is going to happen. It is possible that that is closer to Johns original belief, in that time. Actually it is possible I think that he did not, that he thought of it as I mentioned I do. People back then were not dumb. They understood poetic and imaginary narrative as communication of real ideas.

I am aware that it is possible to think of the entire Bible story as a fiction communicating some important ideas . The ideas can be about real relationships and principals of our life. God can be the potential for life that people have and have in community. There is something beyond just ourself in the human community which calls us to become more and better. It is possible to think of Jesus as a spiritual medicine to help people move toward that positive potential. We need forgiveness for error and self acceptance of our limitations for us to life with courage. The price and process of healing is in giving forgiveness to others and to help them overcome. As medicine to heal our weakness Jesus is the divine incarnate.

Now in truth I primarily believe these principals to be held in actually existing God , son and atonement. Their actual existence does not cover or diminish those basic principals but are surer foundation for them. Now I want to admit as a matter of true honesty I am not always as sure of this literalness as could be. I know of reasons to doubt and am actually a person who finds it difficult to not question and doubt. But to my mind if I am wrong about the literal existence of God I think the meaning of God and what God represents is something worth holding to .
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