DiscussMormonism.com

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:31 pm

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:25 pm

Tell me, then, biblically, what becomes of those who continue to rebel against God until the Last Day?

Last day of what? And are you inserting hell so you have an answer to a question you are creating from a partial understanding?

This should probably be moved to its own thread, but I'm referring to the day of the Lord or the day Christ returns and final judgement. Biblically, what becomes of those who rebel against God up until the day Christ returns?

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:11 pm

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:31 pm

Last day of what? And are you inserting hell so you have an answer to a question you are creating from a partial understanding?

This should probably be moved to its own thread, but I'm referring to the day of the Lord or the day Christ returns and final judgement. Biblically, what becomes of those who rebel against God up until the day Christ returns?

Why don’t you just make your point instead of asking leading questions?

- Doc

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:14 pm

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:27 pm

I agree with what huckleberry said.

It is my understanding the God allows for free will for his creation, both human and with supernatural beings. It is my understanding that those who wind up in Hell, do so by their own doing. I think it probably does grieves God.

Thanks msnobody. It appears you align with most believers on this. I don’t see how this is a response to what I’ve said. If god is aware there are those who will suffer eternally, and he’s wise enough to know who they are and refuses to give them what they need to believe, assuming it is only he who would know, then it appears he does not love some enough, just as he does not love the devil enough. It appears in all of this he needs some people to suffer eternally. He set it up that way.

In their free will, they reject it.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:16 pm

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:11 pm

This should probably be moved to its own thread, but I'm referring to the day of the Lord or the day Christ returns and final judgement. Biblically, what becomes of those who rebel against God up until the day Christ returns?

Why don’t you just make your point instead of asking leading questions?

- Doc

Kishkumen stated, "Hell is a false doctrine. It has no solid basis in the Bible."

I asked, "Tell me, then, biblically, what becomes of those who continue to rebel against God until the last day [coming of Christ/final judgement to clarify]?

An invitation for Kishkumen to show me from biblical scripture where I err, and for me to consider changing my view if warranted. That is the point. He may or may not be interested and that is fine with me. I'm sure we both would like to enjoy this beautiful day instead of going back and forth on a discussion board.

What I am saying is that you are not showing that hell exists by posing a question. I don’t need to answer that question, nor does there need to be an answer to the question. Either the doctrine of hell is clearly laid out in the Bible or it is not. I say it is not.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:03 am

What I am saying is that you are not showing that hell exists by posing a question. I don’t need to answer that question, nor does there need to be an answer to the question. Either the doctrine of hell is clearly laid out in the Bible or it is not. I say it is not.

Maybe were at an impasse. Seems we are both seeking the burden of proof from one another.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:22 pm

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:14 pm

Thanks msnobody. It appears you align with most believers on this. I don’t see how this is a response to what I’ve said. If god is aware there are those who will suffer eternally, and he’s wise enough to know who they are and refuses to give them what they need to believe, assuming it is only he who would know, then it appears he does not love some enough, just as he does not love the devil enough. It appears in all of this he needs some people to suffer eternally. He set it up that way.

In their free will, they reject it.

That to me remains a bit irrelevant. That god intends to punish people for their finite crimes seems heavily problematic to me. That really the only way to accept him is assuming him or having him magically convince a person also seems immoral to me, all things considered. That believers tend to think he’s ready to punish people and yet tends to bless believers in subtle ways only compounds the problem as I see it.

Anyway, thanks for commenting msnobody. Hope this finds you well.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:52 am

Maybe were at an impasse. Seems we are both seeking the burden of proof from one another.

Since the existence of hell is a positive claim, the ones claiming it exists must bear the burden of proof. The first clear articulation of hell comes from St. Augustine in his City of God. Feel free to correct me on that.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:47 am

msnobody wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:52 am

Maybe were at an impasse. Seems we are both seeking the burden of proof from one another.

Since the existence of hell is a positive claim, the ones claiming it exists must bear the burden of proof. The first clear articulation of hell comes from St. Augustine in his City of God. Feel free to correct me on that.

Kishkumen,
https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... bout-hell/
I asked google about Tertullian and hell, finds a site with a variety of quotes,
first quote from Ignatius, site has extended list , I only copied a few, Tertullian makes his appearance later
//
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him." (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)
Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. “Second Clement” reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

///
I can see uncertainty about the idea of hell in the Bible. I also do not think it is reasonable to expect to find answers to every question in the Bible. Hunting for comments which might be clues is an uncertain matter.

Still I think that starting the idea of eternal life or resurrection after death combines with the idea of judgement and the elimination of the evil men do creates a space in which the idea of hell takes shape. Perhaps with partial agreement with Kishkumens statement I do not think pictures of hell are the only possiblity for that space. Either purgatory or a second complete death might be thought of.

Here is another site following a line of thought which appears to view matters in a way close to Kishkumens comment. It has relevant observation and a garbled or typo for Romans reference.
https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/how-White House ... 10e6b70815

It appears I forgot the link at first.