DiscussMormonism.com

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:39 pm

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:32 pm

Huh? I don't recognize the Christians that you describe here as speaking as if God loves them more than any Mormon. Not even close.

Can you share a more specific experience you've had with that type of interaction yourself where statements were made to that effect?

Have you ever gotten that vibe on these boards from me or others who identify as non-LDS Christian?

Ftr, I do absolutely believe that LDS can experience God, know Jesus, and discern the leading of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as LDS refer to it in the language of their faith.

I wanted to get into the hell doctrine piece of this thread (reading it backwards as I often do) so I went to the beginning and found your post here. I'd appreciate it if you would answer the bolded questions I posed to you.

Speaking for myself, I have not encountered Christians who thought God loved them better than me.

Same.

So with the hell doctrine issue, I admittedly didn't read every word of every post. Just throwing in here as best I can.

I think that Christians who go back into the Old Testament and read about Tophet and the fires of Molech automatically attach that to Hell doctrine. I could be wrong and maybe I'm just judging based on what I used to think about it myself. (Oh, I just got an idea in real time, let me see if I can work that in. )

So I think msnobody might have been thinking about indications in Biblical scripture which is why she confined her question to that in order to illicit a response from Kish (don't come for me, I didn't read everything) within the text of the Bible. He wasn't about doing that so it seems there was an impasse of some sort.

Anyway...well let's cut to the chase and go directly to The Revelation of John because I think that's what the Christian mind and study lead to though I can't speak for everyone. by the way, I have a strong aversion to pulling scripture out of context but for the sake of brevity here... KJV because it's what we generally have in common.

Chapter 20

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21 now...

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

So...I don't get how death and hell could be cast into the lake of fire if, as some Christians read it, the lake of fire IS hell.

Keeping in mind that there are, I think, three different views of The Revelation that one has available for interpretation.

Is The Revelation all metaphor? Is the lake of fire a reference to Tophet/Molech as John might have understood it?

I'll take it one step further, is John understanding this to mean that God is sacrificing his own children and if so, why is God doing what followers of Baal did?

I'm just throwing out my thoughts on this. Double spacing is always a sign of me thinking in real time trying to sort something out.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:39 pm

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:32 pm

Huh? I don't recognize the Christians that you describe here as speaking as if God loves them more than any Mormon. Not even close.

Can you share a more specific experience you've had with that type of interaction yourself where statements were made to that effect?

Have you ever gotten that vibe on these boards from me or others who identify as non-LDS Christian?

Ftr, I do absolutely believe that LDS can experience God, know Jesus, and discern the leading of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as LDS refer to it in the language of their faith.

I wanted to get into the hell doctrine piece of this thread (reading it backwards as I often do) so I went to the beginning and found your post here. I'd appreciate it if you would answer the bolded questions I posed to you.

Speaking for myself, I have not encountered Christians who thought God loved them better than me.

Me either, I mean, I could post several portions of Biblical scripture that indicates otherwise. Then again, I can't speak for the attitudes of every self proclaimed follower of Christ Jesus or how they interpret anything either. I mean, we see this poor use of the Bible in the political arena every single day now.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:36 pm

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:12 pm

I suspect the hell view is a misapplied and misunderstood of God's glory in fire. It would not surprise me in the least if it has been misunderstood and had it turned on its head...

Oh wise Philo! You know your stuff, sir. Yes, the glory of God smites those who are unworthy of it. The Glory of God is unquenchable fire. The problem with hell, from a Trinitarian perspective, is it is conceived as a place where there is no God. So much for the omnipresence of Deity!

Among its numerous issues, this is a powerful one! Hell also eliminates the theme of God's omnipotent love. It is not love which allows suffering for an eternity non ending in any manner. NO SIN, be it so great, from our mere finite perspective, is of a caliber to merit non ending suffering, especially from a finite understanding of humans. The logic is simply ridiculous.

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:57 pm

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:39 pm

Speaking for myself, I have not encountered Christians who thought God loved them better than me.

Me either, I mean, I could post several portions of Biblical scripture that indicates otherwise. Then again, I can't speak for the attitudes of every self proclaimed follower of Christ Jesus or how they interpret anything either. I mean, we see this poor use of the Bible in the political arena every single day now.

An astute point which is a gentle reminder of how seriously we need to actually learn what the Bible says instead of imagining it says what we think it does. I suppose the same would take for the meaning of the Bible as well, though that gets subjective pretty quickly.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:13 pm

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:57 pm

Me either, I mean, I could post several portions of Biblical scripture that indicates otherwise. Then again, I can't speak for the attitudes of every self proclaimed follower of Christ Jesus or how they interpret anything either. I mean, we see this poor use of the Bible in the political arena every single day now.

An astute point which is a gentle reminder of how seriously we need to actually learn what the Bible says instead of imagining it says what we think it does. I suppose the same would take for the meaning of the Bible as well, though that gets subjective pretty quickly.

The thing is...is that in order to really learn the meaning of things in the Bible, you have to be able to understand it through the cultural lens of the ancients and of course their various languages. Try as I might, that is no easy or quick undertaking.

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:13 pm

An astute point which is a gentle reminder of how seriously we need to actually learn what the Bible says instead of imagining it says what we think it does. I suppose the same would take for the meaning of the Bible as well, though that gets subjective pretty quickly.

The thing is...is that in order to really learn the meaning of things in the Bible, you have to be able to understand it through the cultural lens of the ancients and of course their various languages. Try as I might, that is no easy or quick undertaking.

Yes, the gap of time wreaks havoc on us all...

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:55 pm

Keeping in mind that there are, I think, three different views of The Revelation that one has available for interpretation.

Well I mess that up right quick. Apparently there are 4 available views from which to interpret The Revelation.

Idealist, preterist, historicist, and futurist. I think that if you ask the average Christian what view they take their answer would be something like..."What it says".

I wouldn't mind seeing a thread on the topic of these 4 views though I don't think I'm fit to facilitate it.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:00 pm

Jersey Girl wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:58 pm

The thing is...is that in order to really learn the meaning of things in the Bible, you have to be able to understand it through the cultural lens of the ancients and of course their various languages. Try as I might, that is no easy or quick undertaking.

Yes, the gap of time wreaks havoc on us all...

Especially if you are someone like me who goes off on a creative frenzy which I am two seconds away from doing right this very minute--I mean that literally and so I will disappear soon except for when I come up for air and take a pause. Which I mention because it points to my lack of self discipline.

Wait a goldarn minute!

Are you gals and guys saying that Dante Alighieri is not the last word on Christian theology?

I'm at least as often wrong as right in matters of theology, but I have assumed (!) for a long time that the view of hell of the average Christian-in-the-street is as likely as not informed by Dante's divine poetry. My view, though, is probably very limited, and perhaps not to be taken seriously.

However, I'm pretty sure that, although I didn't know about him when I was growing up in Scotland, the hellfire and damnation that seemed so prevalent in Scottish Protestant thought was the result of preachers reading Dante - or, at least, reading about Dante's work.