"what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

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Marcus
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Marcus »

Morley wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:41 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:36 am
I still stand by the comments I’ve made but also realize that the goal of stopping child abuse has not been met. I do think that when all is said and done, this is the goal. The problem is that the church is placing too much emphasis on protecting everyone…including the institution of the church itself… that at times victims are getting the short shrift.

That’s got to change. Sooner the better. Victims first at ALL costs.
It should not have taken this long for you to say this.
It didn't last long.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:54 pm
...As it is, these men are ordained of God and are ONLY accountable to him.

But you can shout and bitch for all the change you want. No one is stopping you.

And again, to be clear, members of the church and the church leadership are adamantly opposed to anything having to do with abuse. And as I said, adjustments have been and continue to be made to root out this evil.
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:54 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:17 pm
I think the problem is that the Church leaders can't admit that they collectively have made mistakes and huge ones on this and in other areas. They believe they need to keep up the false pretenses to retain power. This needs to change.
Ultimately this is the desire of those that would like to see the church go away. Take down the power structures as they are, apostles and prophets, and replace them with a power structure that is strictly accountable to people rather than God. Replace the leaders with more ‘worldly’ men.

As it is, these men are ordained of God and are ONLY accountable to him.

But you can shout and bitch for all the change you want. No one is stopping you.

And again, to be clear, members of the church and the church leadership are adamantly opposed to anything having to do with abuse. And as I said, adjustments have been and continue to be made to root out this evil.

Regards,
MG
And we can thank the media attention and lawsuits for whatever minimal change has reluctantly been made, if any - and tell me again what adjustments have been made? I must have missed them because I don't see any change other than some reluctant lip service. Also, if your leaders are so inspired, why haven't they come up with a solution to make the Church the safest organization regarding child abuse? This has been a problem for more than 50 years. Where is God in this? Do you think he loves abuse and condones it? Why doesn't he step in and stop this by maybe communicating a little better than the feeling system that now plagues the supposed one and only?
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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JohnW
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by JohnW »

Human behavior is interesting. We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs.

I post here that my experience with the church legal hotline is that they take great care in putting victim's safety first. Somehow that is interpreted that the church never puts victim's safety first. I then post that my experience is the police are contacted whenever a victim's safety is in question. Somehow that is interpreted that the police are never contacted.

I guess this is pizzagate 2.0? I suppose nothing I say will ever change anyone's mind. That one pizzagate guy broke into the basement of the pizza place thinking he would find a pedophile ring. When he only found crates of pizza-making supplies, he was certain that proved, without a doubt, there was a pedophile ring in the basement. I used to think those were only the crazies, but now I worry we are all crazies at heart.

Maybe I will keep to the theological threads.
Marcus
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Marcus »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:04 am
Human behavior is interesting. We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs.

I post here that my experience with the church legal hotline is that they take great care in putting victim's safety first. Somehow that is interpreted that the church never puts victim's safety first. I then post that my experience is the police are contacted whenever a victim's safety is in question. Somehow that is interpreted that the police are never contacted.
... I suppose nothing I say will ever change anyone's mind...
with all due respect, you are providing 1 person's anecdotal evidence that not only is in direct disagreement with the statistical data, but contains numerous inconsistencies, as per the discussion above of your statements.
I post here that my experience with the church legal hotline is that they take great care in putting victim's safety first.
not according to the additional discussion by others of your statements and your subsequent responses.
I then post that my experience is the police are contacted whenever a victim's safety is in question.
not according to the additional discussion by others of your statements and your subsequent responses.
We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs...
the "We" includes you, right?
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by IHAQ »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:04 am
Human behavior is interesting. We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs.
Are you speaking personally or for humanity as a whole? Because I'm pretty sure humanity as a whole has shifted it's belief on a flat earth, slavery, WMD's in Iraq...etc I can think of beliefs I've changed. And I'm sure posters here can cite beliefs they've changed over the years. If Humans weren't able to change what they believed, you'd still be worshipping the Sun God. There must be more to what you're saying here, because at face value "We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs" is demonstrably and obviously untrue.
I post here that my experience with the church legal hotline is that they take great care in putting victim's safety first.
Have the details of the case outlined in the OP and discussed in this thread not persuaded you that your experience isn't the only experience? I'd be interested in you outlining specifically, whilst protecting privacy, obviously, what the helpline's first piece of counsel/instruction/advice was when you called it to report an incident of abuse.
Last edited by IHAQ on Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:04 am
Human behavior is interesting. We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs.

I post here that my experience with the church legal hotline is that they take great care in putting victim's safety first. Somehow that is interpreted that the church never puts victim's safety first. I then post that my experience is the police are contacted whenever a victim's safety is in question. Somehow that is interpreted that the police are never contacted.

I guess this is pizzagate 2.0? I suppose nothing I say will ever change anyone's mind. That one pizzagate guy broke into the basement of the pizza place thinking he would find a pedophile ring. When he only found crates of pizza-making supplies, he was certain that proved, without a doubt, there was a pedophile ring in the basement. I used to think those were only the crazies, but now I worry we are all crazies at heart.

Maybe I will keep to the theological threads.
1) Did you ever call the police when a matter of familial sexual assault, abuse, rape, or what have you came to your attention?

2) Did the hotline people ever contact law enforcement for you?

3) Were you aware of any criminals in your congregation who committed a sex crime, were ‘within the statute of limitations’, but law enforcement wasn’t contacted?

Look. Just speak plainly and stop giving anecdotal accounts where you speak in vagueries. You’re anonymous. Any examples you give don’t have to use real names.

In the meantime, I challenge you to click on this link:

http://www.hurley-law.com/wp-content/up ... 017-06.pdf

and read the entire document. Of note, for the gentle reader, is that it’s claimed the Mormon church “has a system to track any abusers that come to their attention”. If this were to be believed then it’s evidence the Mormon church knows who these people are, tracks them, but does nothing to stop them <- if I’m wrong on the last point anyone is free to correct the record.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
dastardly stem
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by dastardly stem »

JohnW, what Doc said, plus, your experience is good to hear. I'm simply asking how it applies. Did you have any experience with sexual abuse? You've been eerily evasive on explaining how your experience applies. If you have experience then great. It's worth considering on the topic. So far you've given us a claim that you have experience talking to the help line folks about divorce, custody battles etc. If so, not applicable. The issue is clearly, how does the Church handle issues involving sexual abuse? Not how does the Church handle other things?
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Morley
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Morley »

JohnW wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:37 am
No, these calls were almost never on sexual abuse. These calls were often heart-wrenching to the individuals going through those issues, but usually not hot-button topics that the general membership would be concerned with. Think along the lines of legal concerns relating to divorce and child custody, situations where restraining orders are in place, or when bishops should or should not testify in court as a witness.

I'm going to echo Doc's and Stem's concerns, in the posts above this one. Does "these calls were almost never on sexual abuse" really mean "I never had a sexual abuse case"? I kind of dismissed your one-shot anecdotal evidence when you seemed to back off of what you were saying and insinuated that you didn't really have the experience to judge in these cases. Is that not what you were saying? Perhaps you could be a little less opaque?
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Morley
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Morley »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:04 am
I guess this is pizzagate 2.0? I suppose nothing I say will ever change anyone's mind. That one pizzagate guy broke into the basement of the pizza place thinking he would find a pedophile ring. When he only found crates of pizza-making supplies, he was certain that proved, without a doubt, there was a pedophile ring in the basement. I used to think those were only the crazies, but now I worry we are all crazies at heart.
Forgive me, John, but that you would dismiss discussion and critique of the way known pedophile cases were legally handled--by calling up the pizza gate hoax--is a little stomach churning.
doubtingthomas
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by doubtingthomas »

JohnW wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:48 am


I apologize. It looks like I have struck a nerve or something.
I have some questions about the plan of salvation. Is it possible that God was a child molester when he was a mortal? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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