"what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

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MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:17 pm
I think the problem is that the Church leaders can't admit that they collectively have made mistakes and huge ones on this and in other areas. They believe they need to keep up the false pretenses to retain power. This needs to change.
Ultimately this is the desire of those that would like to see the church go away. Take down the power structures as they are, apostles and prophets, and replace them with a power structure that is strictly accountable to people rather than God. Replace the leaders with more ‘worldly’ men.

As it is, these men are ordained of God and are ONLY accountable to him.

But you can shout and bitch for all the change you want. No one is stopping you.

And again, to be clear, members of the church and the church leadership are adamantly opposed to anything having to do with abuse. And as I said, adjustments have been and continue to be made to root out this evil.

Regards,
MG
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:54 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:17 pm
I think the problem is that the Church leaders can't admit that they collectively have made mistakes and huge ones on this and in other areas. They believe they need to keep up the false pretenses to retain power. This needs to change.
Ultimately this is the desire of those that would like to see the church go away. Take down the power structures as they are, apostles and prophets, and replace them with a power structure that is strictly accountable to people rather than God. Replace the leaders with more ‘worldly’ men.

As it is, these men are ordained of God and are ONLY accountable to him.

But you can shout and bitch for all the change you want. No one is stopping you.

And again, to be clear, members of the church and the church leadership are adamantly opposed to anything having to do with abuse. And as I said, adjustments have been and continue to be made to root out this evil.

Regards,
MG
This is Mormonism right here. He’s more outraged over accountability than child rape. It’s a sickness of the mind and soul.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:02 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:54 pm


Ultimately this is the desire of those that would like to see the church go away. Take down the power structures as they are, apostles and prophets, and replace them with a power structure that is strictly accountable to people rather than God. Replace the leaders with more ‘worldly’ men.

As it is, these men are ordained of God and are ONLY accountable to him.

But you can shout and bitch for all the change you want. No one is stopping you.

And again, to be clear, members of the church and the church leadership are adamantly opposed to anything having to do with abuse. And as I said, adjustments have been and continue to be made to root out this evil.

Regards,
MG
This is Mormonism right here. He’s more outraged over accountability than child rape. It’s a sickness of the mind and soul.

- Doc
You can twist and turn whichever way you want, Doc. You are a false teacher and your goal is to tear down rather than build up.

What a thing to even contemplate that members and leaders of the church condone child rape.

Get off your high horse and get real.

Regards,
MG
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Res Ipsa
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:54 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:17 pm
I think the problem is that the Church leaders can't admit that they collectively have made mistakes and huge ones on this and in other areas. They believe they need to keep up the false pretenses to retain power. This needs to change.
Ultimately this is the desire of those that would like to see the church go away. Take down the power structures as they are, apostles and prophets, and replace them with a power structure that is strictly accountable to people rather than God. Replace the leaders with more ‘worldly’ men.

As it is, these men are ordained of God and are ONLY accountable to him.

But you can shout and bitch for all the change you want. No one is stopping you.

And again, to be clear, members of the church and the church leadership are adamantly opposed to anything having to do with abuse. And as I said, adjustments have been and continue to be made to root out this evil.

Regards,
MG
Yes, it's true. People who want the church to go away want the church to stop child abusers. People who don't care whether the church continues want the church to stop child abusers. And people who want the church to get stronger should want the church to stop child abusers.

And, while you may fool yourself into thinking differently, your church leaders are accountable to people. They're accountable to your membership. Nobody forces the membership to sustain the leaders. Those who see the organization as dragging its feet on protecting the members' children from abusers can vote with their outstretched arms or, as it seems happens more often, with their feet.

Anyone can say they condemn child abuse. But when an organization responds to a news story about a horrendous case where the system in place went horribly wrong by attacking the messenger, the deeds speak louder than the empty words.
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MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:40 pm
And people who want the church to get stronger should want the church to stop child abusers.
The truth is, the church wants to stop child abusers. I give them the benefit of a doubt that they are doing their level headed best to find a middle ground where ministerial duties can take place without jeopardizing various parties rights to privacy, etc.

My comments during this thread are simply in support of church leadership making adjustments/moves towards finding solutions to this horrendous problem that has become a black mark on society and unfortunately also within institutions where you would least expect it.

Whatever adjustments continue to be made I strongly add my voice to those that put the protection of victims first. But I don’t think that President Nelson and other leaders see things differently at the end of the day.

The problem is that there are a lot of ‘moving parts’. My hope is that this apparent breakdown in Arizona which might have been handled better will be a learning experience so that we will see fewer and fewer of these isolated instances occur.

Obvious it would be awesome if these abuses and breakdowns in chain of command never happened. Human beings are fallible. Mistakes can be made. We learn.

We also have to remember, as I said, that there ARE those that have underlying motives to literally tear down the church as an institution as they debate these issues. I think we can debate with the intention of building up and reinforcing that which needs to be corrected without asking for leadership change or demanding apologies.

Regards,
MG
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Res Ipsa
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:05 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:40 pm
And people who want the church to get stronger should want the church to stop child abusers.
The truth is, the church wants to stop child abusers. I give them the benefit of a doubt that they are doing their level headed best to find a middle ground where ministerial duties can take place without jeopardizing various parties rights to privacy, etc.

My comments during this thread are simply in support of church leadership making adjustments/moves towards finding solutions to this horrendous problem that has become a black mark on society and unfortunately also within institutions where you would least expect it.

Whatever adjustments continue to be made I strongly add my voice to those that put the protection of victims first. But I don’t think that President Nelson and other leaders see things differently at the end of the day.

The problem is that there are a lot of ‘moving parts’. My hope is that this apparent breakdown in Arizona which might have been handled better will be a learning experience so that we will see fewer and fewer of these isolated instances occur.

Obvious it would be awesome if these abuses and breakdowns in chain of command never happened. Human beings are fallible. Mistakes can be made. We learn.

We also have to remember, as I said, that there ARE those that have underlying motives to literally tear down the church as an institution as they debate these issues. I think we can debate with the intention of building up and reinforcing that which needs to be corrected without asking for leadership change or demanding apologies.

Regards,
MG
What is this "middle ground" you are proposing? Under what circumstances should a bishop fail to report child abuse? How can not reporting ever be considered victims first.

What "adjustments" are being made to the process in light of the Arizona case. So far, I have seen zero recognition from the organization that anything went wrong. The church takes the position that it was just hunky dory to washed its hands of the whole situation by excommunicating the abuser and staying mum about the continuing abuse it had known about for three years -- including abuse of an infant.

I don't care about the motives of critics. That's a smokescreen you are hiding behind. I'm not demanding resignations or apologies -- I'm criticizing the failure of the organization to take any responsibility for what happened and taking action as opposed to mouthing platitudes.
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by IHAQ »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:05 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:40 pm
And people who want the church to get stronger should want the church to stop child abusers.
The truth is, the church wants to stop child abusers.
The Church won't even implement basic background checks for leaders or people given positions of trust, nor will the Church end behaviour they openly acknowledge is against gospel teachings and which is harmful - that of having Male adults alone with minors talking to them about sex. The Church doesn't do all it can to prevent child abuse, therefore your assertion is false.
I give them the benefit of a doubt that they are doing their level headed best to find a middle ground where ministerial duties can take place without jeopardizing various parties rights to privacy, etc.
You've omitted the Childs right to be protected from abuse by somebody in a position to do so. You're prioritising a right to privacy over the victims right to not be abused. You're arguing for continuing to facilitate child abuse. You should be ashamed of yourself as a parent.
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Rivendale »

Again and again and again Prophets seers and revelators are reactive rather than proactive. Mark Hoffman, reactive. Civil rights, reactive in the negative direction. Mountain Meadows. Kirkland Safety Society. Covid. 9:11. Space travel. Discernment. Quite a large swath of human behaviors that were failed Seer attempts. Makes you wonder what good they are.
Last edited by Rivendale on Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:08 pm

You can twist and turn whichever way you want, Doc. You are a false teacher and your goal is to tear down rather than build up.

What a thing to even contemplate that members and leaders of the church condone child rape.

Get off your high horse and get real.

Regards,
MG
Son of a b!tch, looks like Doctor Cam has all the needed qualifications as the next Apostle, other than that nagging pretend to believe thing.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:08 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:02 pm


This is Mormonism right here. He’s more outraged over accountability than child rape. It’s a sickness of the mind and soul.

- Doc
You can twist and turn whichever way you want, Doc. You are a false teacher and your goal is to tear down rather than build up.

What a thing to even contemplate that members and leaders of the church condone child rape.

Get off your high horse and get real.

Regards,
MG
Again, this is Mormonism made manifest. MG is more upset that someone is speaking plainly and with truth than with his fellow Mormon men who literally send rapists back to their families to rape them some more. Mormons’ moral center is so skewed they see evil and call it godly, and they see justice and call it war.

It’s a sickness. Period.

MG,

I challenge you open this link and read every single page. If you can do that and still keep the perspective you’re holding on to, then at least we know you’re making an informed decision:

http://www.hurley-law.com/wp-content/up ... 017-06.pdf

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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