"what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

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MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:26 pm
Again and again and again Prophets seers and revelators are reactive rather than proactive. Mark Hoffman, reactive. Civil rights, reactive in the negative direction. Mountain Meadows. Kirkland Safety Society. Covid. 9:11. Space travel. Discernment. Quite a large swath of human behaviors that were failed Seer attempts. Makes you wonder what good they are.
To teach and encourage through individual and large scale ministry. To bear witness of Christ and his Sonship to the Father. Call to repentance and bless the membership. Uphold correct doctrine and policies. Hold the keys of the Holy Priesthood which are then exercised as saving and exalting ordinances are done in and out of the temples. Receive revelation in regards to organizing church units and administering the missionary program. Day to day decisions dealing with member status.

And other responsibilities.

The things you mention, and others, may not…at least in all cases…be under their direct preview.

Their responsibilities lie elsewhere.

Regards,
MG
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:39 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:26 pm
Again and again and again Prophets seers and revelators are reactive rather than proactive. Mark Hoffman, reactive. Civil rights, reactive in the negative direction. Mountain Meadows. Kirkland Safety Society. Covid. 9:11. Space travel. Discernment. Quite a large swath of human behaviors that were failed Seer attempts. Makes you wonder what good they are.
To teach and encourage through individual and large scale ministry. To bear witness of Christ and his Sonship to the Father. Call to repentance and bless the membership. Uphold correct doctrine and policies. Hold the keys of the Holy Priesthood which are then exercised as saving and exalting ordinances are done in and out of the temples. Receive revelation in regards to organizing church units and administering the missionary program. Day to day decisions dealing with member status.

And other responsibilities.

The things you mention, and others, may not…at least in all cases…be under their direct preview.

Their responsibilities lie elsewhere.

Regards,
MG
Vagueries meant to distract from pointed policy discussion.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Res Ipsa »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:04 am
Human behavior is interesting. We just don't seem to be able to change our beliefs.

I post here that my experience with the church legal hotline is that they take great care in putting victim's safety first. Somehow that is interpreted that the church never puts victim's safety first. I then post that my experience is the police are contacted whenever a victim's safety is in question. Somehow that is interpreted that the police are never contacted.

I guess this is pizzagate 2.0? I suppose nothing I say will ever change anyone's mind. That one pizzagate guy broke into the basement of the pizza place thinking he would find a pedophile ring. When he only found crates of pizza-making supplies, he was certain that proved, without a doubt, there was a pedophile ring in the basement. I used to think those were only the crazies, but now I worry we are all crazies at heart.

Maybe I will keep to the theological threads.
John, I'm an attorney, so I also have to deal with the issue of legal privileges. I have a duty to keep confidential all information regarding my representation of a client, with certain exceptions. Here are the two relevant to the situation we are discussing here:
(1) shall reveal information relating to the representation of a client to prevent reasonably
certain death or substantial bodily harm;

(2) may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to prevent the client from committing a crime;
Luckily, I've never had to deal with these two exceptions in my practice. Also, I have a hot line staffed by ethics advisors from my state bar that I can call. I can even request a written opinion from the bar.

I very much appreciate what you posted about your experience with the hot line. I also understand that, given the numbers of people who participate here, odds are that there are folks here who were abused as children, had siblings who were abused as children, or who have extended family members or close friends who were abused as children. Many of us also grew up in the church as children. So, it shouldn't be surprising that many folks here have very strong opinions about child abuse and how allegations of child abuse are handled by the church.

Personally, I have a hard time reconciling what you've told us with the church's reaction to the AP story. The church's stance seems to be that nothing wrong was done, yet at least 14-15 leaders in wards/stakes were aware enough to excommunicate the abuser but no police were called and no reports were made. Under the system you described, that should never have happened. But the church doesn't treat it as an aberration -- it defends it as the system working.

One explanation might be that you live in a state where clergy are required to report child abuse. I'm not asking you to tell me what any lawyer told you about the laws in your state, but do you have a general understanding of the reporting obligations of clergy in your state? If you're not comfortable describing those obligations, you mind telling us which state you were a bishop in? Then I could look for myself.

Part of the problem I'm having is that you use terms subject to a range of interpretation. The main one is "victim safety." Another is "comes first." I understand completely that you can't speak to specific cases, but without knowing how the general terms are applied, it's hard to understand what's going on.

For example, about how many times during your service as bishop did you have reason to believe a child in the ward was being abused sexually? About how many of those times did you call the hot line? Were the police called or authorities informed in each case? If not, what were the types of reasons that led you not to call the police or inform the authorities? Put another way, if victim safety came first, how did you determine in individual cases whether the victim's safety was at risk?

Thanks.
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Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Doctor Steuss »

My wife worked at the pool for one of Steve Winn’s casinos as a teenager. She later worked briefly as a cocktail waitress. When Winn’s pattern of sexualizing the workplace came to light publicly, my wife as well as others began sharing their personal experiences. The reaction by many was “he never rubbed up against me,” or “in my experience he was always professional.”

“In my personal experience, they always tried to protect the victims…” “I was never advised to not contact LE about a child rapist…”

Personal anecdotes don’t change the fact that at least two bishops, and at least one Church lawyer knew a man had/was raping his child and molesting his baby. Personal anecdotes don’t change the fact that at least two bishops, and at least one Church lawyer did nothing for the victims. Literally, nothing.

I’m glad you didn’t have the hotline advise you to not intervene via law enforcement to stop an abuser. In the case of this child, and baby, that did happen. I think it might be worth some introspection to ask if you would have still contacted law enforcement in the case(s) you did if you had been advised by the Church not to.

If the Church had told you “continue counseling the abuser” in lieu of contacting law enforcement, would you have disobeyed the Church? The tenor of the conversation makes me lean towards “no.”
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Rivendale
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Rivendale »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:39 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:26 pm
Again and again and again Prophets seers and revelators are reactive rather than proactive. Mark Hoffman, reactive. Civil rights, reactive in the negative direction. Mountain Meadows. Kirkland Safety Society. Covid. 9:11. Space travel. Discernment. Quite a large swath of human behaviors that were failed Seer attempts. Makes you wonder what good they are.
To teach and encourage through individual and large scale ministry. To bear witness of Christ and his Sonship to the Father. Call to repentance and bless the membership. Uphold correct doctrine and policies. Hold the keys of the Holy Priesthood which are then exercised as saving and exalting ordinances are done in and out of the temples. Receive revelation in regards to organizing church units and administering the missionary program. Day to day decisions dealing with member status.

And other responsibilities.

The things you mention, and others, may not…at least in all cases…be under their direct preview.

Their responsibilities lie elsewhere.

Regards,
MG
Large scale ministry is severely lacking especially when less than 1/10 of 1% of people are Mormons. All that other stuff is cosplay for beliefs.
MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:26 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:39 pm


To teach and encourage through individual and large scale ministry. To bear witness of Christ and his Sonship to the Father. Call to repentance and bless the membership. Uphold correct doctrine and policies. Hold the keys of the Holy Priesthood which are then exercised as saving and exalting ordinances are done in and out of the temples. Receive revelation in regards to organizing church units and administering the missionary program. Day to day decisions dealing with member status.

And other responsibilities.

The things you mention, and others, may not…at least in all cases…be under their direct preview.

Their responsibilities lie elsewhere.

Regards,
MG
Large scale ministry is severely lacking especially when less than 1/10 of 1% of people are Mormons.
Definitely not for lack of trying. Many are called, few are chosen.

Straight is the way, narrow is the gate. Few there be that will find it.
Rivendale wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:26 pm
All that other stuff is cosplay for beliefs.
It may look that way from the outside looking in.

Regards ,
MG
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Rivendale
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Rivendale »

Jim Jones had some amazing accountants and off grid consultants. That same human behavior should be some kind of hint that sometimes the outside view deserves merit.
MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:48 am
Jim Jones had some amazing accountants and off grid consultants. That same human behavior should be some kind of hint that sometimes the outside view deserves merit.
I agree. Often that is true. That’s why your view is welcome and necessary. Believers need to be reminded that they need to take a hard look at the reasons for their belief.

Regards,
MG
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:19 am
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:48 am
Jim Jones had some amazing accountants and off grid consultants. That same human behavior should be some kind of hint that sometimes the outside view deserves merit.
I agree. Often that is true. That’s why your view is welcome and necessary. Believers need to be reminded that they need to take a hard look at the reasons for their belief.

Regards,
MG
And when the “hard look” reveals your “church” protects and enables child rapists, well, stop looking in that direction.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
MG 2.0
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Re: "what the [lds] church misrepresented in the AP article response"

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:36 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:19 am
I agree. Often that is true. That’s why your view is welcome and necessary. Believers need to be reminded that they need to take a hard look at the reasons for their belief.

Regards,
MG
And when the “hard look” reveals your “church” protects and enables child rapists, well, stop looking in that direction.

- Doc
Aargh. There is no getting around your ceaseless accusations even though I’ve spent a good amount of time stating my views which run contrary to your absolutist conclusions and innuendo.

I’m done with you on this topic. Others can go back, if they want to, and put flesh on the skin and bones.

You have the last word.

Good day.

Regards,
MG
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