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The reputation of the church should not be a factor in these matters in the way the church defines it currently. Seems reputation = short lived embarrassment. It leads to too many cover-ups. Like Doc says, do what is right and let the consequences follow. That would probably do more for the reputation than anything else ... a church that chooses the right despite economic, political or short lived reputational hits ... that would be a church to be proud of, certainly.

Morley wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:37 pm

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:30 am

Again, I don’t envy them. But neither do I condemn them. And unfortunately you are also going to have a few rogue Bishops along the way. But that isn’t any reason to tear the whole system down as some might desire.

Sure it is.

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

This editorial covers things in an even handed way, in my opinion:

https://publicsquaremag.org/editorials/ ... us-christ/

There is no reason to tear the system down. As I said earlier, what is needed…and I give the church the benefit of a doubt on this…is that there is continual need of fine tuning in order to protect the rights of all involved with the victim having priority. The way this works from state to state and country to country is the challenge for church legal. I do agree wholeheartedly with the fact that victims’s rights and concerns should take priority when all of the convoluted mass of legal requirements and enforcements are taken into account and put into play.

An extract from the editorial:

Are the documents the AP used in this report available to confirm their reporting?

They are not. The documents are sealed and were presumably leaked to the reporters involved. The leaker is currently unknown, and the documents are not available for independent verification. Amidst 12,000 pages, there is undoubtedly a great deal of context and detail that is being missed.

Seems to me this is an important point.

Anyway, I’m not going to excuse any error which MAY have occurred along the way but until all the facts are made public I’m unwilling to make a blanket condemnation on ‘the church’ as those here are wont to do.

Regards,
MG

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:41 pm

An extract from the editorial:

Are the documents the AP used in this report available to confirm their reporting?

They are not. The documents are sealed and were presumably leaked to the reporters involved. The leaker is currently unknown, and the documents are not available for independent verification. Amidst 12,000 pages, there is undoubtedly a great deal of context and detail that is being missed.

Seems to me this is an important point.

Anyway, I’m not going to excuse any error which MAY have occurred along the way but until all the facts are made public I’m unwilling to make a blanket condemnation on ‘the church’ as those here are wont to do.

Regards,
MG

Paul Adam's indictment, Leizza Adam's Mitigation Hearting (with Warr's testimony), and Leizza Adam's Sentencing Hearing (with Agent Edward's testimony) are all available.

ETA:
A father was raping his child. He was also trying to rape his baby, but was molesting the baby instead because the father’s repeated attempts at rape failed because she was “too small” (his words). A person was told, personally, by the father that this took place. This person (and the organization they represent) took no action to protect and provide for the child and baby.

There is no “context” that makes that ok. There are no facts that would make a blanket condemnation not warranted.

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:41 pm

Morley wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:37 pm

Sure it is.

“And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

This editorial covers things in an even handed way, in my opinion:

https://publicsquaremag.org/editorials/ ... us-christ/

There is no reason to tear the system down. As I said earlier, what is needed…and I give the church the benefit of a doubt on this…is that there is continual need of fine tuning in order to protect the rights of all involved with the victim having priority. The way this works from state to state and country to country is the challenge for church legal. I do agree wholeheartedly with the fact that victims’s rights and concerns should take priority when all of the convoluted mass of legal requirements and enforcements are taken into account and put into play.

An extract from the editorial:

Are the documents the AP used in this report available to confirm their reporting?

They are not. The documents are sealed and were presumably leaked to the reporters involved. The leaker is currently unknown, and the documents are not available for independent verification. Amidst 12,000 pages, there is undoubtedly a great deal of context and detail that is being missed.

Seems to me this is an important point.

Anyway, I’m not going to excuse any error which MAY have occurred along the way but until all the facts are made public I’m unwilling to make a blanket condemnation on ‘the church’ as those here are wont to do.

Regards,
MG

The fact that you can’t even bring yourself to admit there was a problem is emblematic of the attitude that enables this kind of horrific harm to children. You haven’t bothered to read what’s publicly available, have you?

I’m not suggesting that everything needs to be torn down, but to suggest that the system just needs fine tuning demonstrates an attitude of callousness and denial that I find pretty shocking.

This isn’t somebody allegedly shouting something during a sporting event or spending a few extra bucks on ceremonial shovels — this was years of ongoing abuse that I can’t adequately describe in any forum here at DM know to at minimum two bishops, a state President, members of a stake high council, and a hot-line lawyer. It represents a catastrophic failure of the system purportedly put in place to prevent this exact problem.

At the very least, it should call for a humble acknowledgement of the system’s failure and the harm done to the two girls, along with a review of why this happened and how the system could be improved to avoid this happening again. Instead, the church chose to attack the AP.

Dr Exiled wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:24 pm

The reputation of the church should not be a factor in these matters in the way the church defines it currently. Seems reputation = short lived embarrassment. It leads to too many cover-ups. Like Doc says, do what is right and let the consequences follow. That would probably do more for the reputation than anything else ... a church that chooses the right despite economic, political or short lived reputational hits ... that would be a church to be proud of, certainly.

yep. The idiocy here is the Church only hurts itself by acting defensive. It gains respect from others as soon as it drops the desire to protect itself, I'd think.

Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:47 pm

Paul Adam's indictment, Leizza Adam's Mitigation Hearting (with Warr's testimony), and Leizza Adam's Sentencing Hearing (with Agent Edward's testimony) are all available.

ETA:
A father was raping his child. He was also trying to rape his baby, but was molesting the baby instead because the father’s repeated attempts at rape failed because she was “too small” (his words). A person was told, personally, by the father that this took place. This person (and the organization they represent) took no action to protect and provide for the child and baby.

There is no “context” that makes that ok. There are no facts that would make a blanket condemnation not warranted.

The AP reported in August that Adams confessed to Herrod in 2010 that he sexually abused his daughter, identified as MJ.

The church’s lawyers have said Herrod, and later bishop Robert “Kim” Mauzy, legally withheld information about MJ’s abuse under the state’s clergy-penitent privilege. Arizona law generally requires clergy members to report child neglect and sexual abuse but allows them to withhold information obtained during a spiritual confession.

The log of calls filed in the Arizona Court of Appeals shows that Nelson spoke with Herrod and Mauzy multiple times from November of 2011 to February of 2014, a period during which Adams was excommunicated. Mauzy presided over a 2013 church disciplinary process after which Adams was expelled.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/ap-p ... 62940.html

Confesses to child abuse in 2010, but remains a church member in good standing until 2013. Why did it take 3 years to convene a disciplinary council? Every single detail of this case shows that the Bishops involved and the Church lawyer/reporting system placed the victims well-being a distant last in terms of priority. It's a system that facilitates child abuse.

The Church lawyer gave incorrect legal advice that led to a Bishop facilitating years of child abuse. He was practicing law outside of his jurisdiction. Has that Lawyer been struck off yet? There will be no consequences for the Bishops and Lawyers involved. The only people currently who have suffered consequences are the victims. It's been 12 years. Nelson stood up at conference and talked about having no tolerance for child abuse. He's lying. The Church tolerated child abuse in this case for 3 years, minimum. And has spent nearly a decade trying to keep it quiet. And this is just one example of many, many cases that have been shoved under the carpet.

If you discover a person is abusing a child do you:
A. Report it to law enforcement immediately
B. Something other than A

Option B facilitates child abuse.

Just to clarify timing, the original AP article came out in August. The church's response as shown in the OP was in August. In September, the AP reported the following, based on documents filed in the Arizona Court of Appeals:

https://apnews.com/article/religion-law ... 32f70376ec

Note that the church states the help line received one call when the abuse was first reported, and then claims it did not learn until 2017 that the abuse continued. Yet, according to the call log and deposition transcript filed with the Arizona Court of Appeals, both bishops called the same lawyer at Kirton McConkie over a period of a few years concerning the Adams situation.

That same lawyer commented in the original story that it looked like the help line worked, without disclosing that he had taken calls from the bishops.

Res Ipsa wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:25 pm

Just to clarify timing, the original AP article came out in August. The church's response as shown in the OP was in August. In September, the AP reported the following, based on documents filed in the Arizona Court of Appeals:

https://apnews.com/article/religion-law ... 32f70376ec

Note that the church states the help line received one call when the abuse was first reported, and then claims it did not learn until 2017 that the abuse continued. Yet, according to the call log and deposition transcript filed with the Arizona Court of Appeals, both bishops called the same lawyer at Kirton McConkie over a period of a few years concerning the Adams situation.

That same lawyer commented in the original story that it looked like the help line worked, without disclosing that he had taken calls from the bishops.

from your link:

A Utah lawmaker and prominent attorney for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints advised a church bishop not to report a confession of child sex abuse to authorities, a decision that allowed the abuse to continue for years, according to records filed in a lawsuit.

The records — two pages from a log of calls fielded by a law firm representing the church and the deposition of a church official — show that Utah Republican State Rep. Merrill F. Nelson took the initial call from a bishop reporting that church member Paul Adams had sexually abused his daughters. Nelson also had multiple conversations over a two-year span with two bishops who knew of the abuse, the records show.

Nelson is a conservative lawmaker who was elected to the Utah House of Representatives in 2013 and announced his retirement earlier this year. He was also a lawyer with the Salt Lake City firm Kirton McConkie, which represents the church. He earned his undergraduate and law degree from church-owned Brigham Young University.

Wow. It's incredibly difficult to reconcile this accounting with the assertion from an lds member, stated earlier in the thread, that "...what is needed…and I give the church the benefit of a doubt on this…is that there is continual need of fine tuning..."

No. This is way past "fine tuning." And there is no "benefit of the doubt" that would reconcile this.

I had posted upthread something something about cutting the cult guys some slack. I take it back. My lack of due diligence caused me to not realize how bad the abuse was. My bad. Kill them all.

dantana wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:27 pm

I had posted upthread something something about cutting the cult guys some slack. I take it back. My lack of due diligence caused me to not realize how bad the abuse was. My bad. Kill them all.

I wasn't quoting you.

MG 2.0 wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:41 pm

...There is no reason to tear the system down. As I said earlier, what is needed…and I give the church the benefit of a doubt on this…is that there is continual need of fine tuning in order to protect the rights of all involved with the victim having priority...