Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

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MG 2.0
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:53 pm
Why should anyone accept another who claims to be God's special witness, prophet, seer, and revelator if that other teaches things that aren't good or useful?
That is a loaded question with lots of rabbit trails. 😉

I think you have found your answer.

The fact is, Elder Renlund gave a talk. As members we listen to and harken to his words. We then take what we will as we seek revelation and inspiration from God in our lives and continue on the covenant path.

The difference is, I suppose, is we are not looking for reasons to step off that path as some might be wont to do.

And no, we’re not ‘blindly’ following every word spoken over the pulpit.

I missed part of Elder Renlund’s talk. IHAQ’s quotes from his talk make me want to go back and listen to his before some of the others.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:16 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:53 pm
Why should anyone accept another who claims to be God's special witness, prophet, seer, and revelator if that other teaches things that aren't good or useful?
That is a loaded question with lots of rabbit trails. 😉

I think you have found your answer.

The fact is, Elder Renlund gave a talk. As members we listen to and harken to his words. We then take what we will as we seek revelation and inspiration from God in our lives and continue on the covenant path.

The difference is, I suppose, is we are not looking for reasons to step off that path as some might be wont to do.

And no, we’re not ‘blindly’ following every word spoken over the pulpit.

I missed part of Elder Renlund’s talk. IHAQ’s quotes from his talk make me want to go back and listen to his before some of the others.

Regards,
MG
Why not just read the talk at this point? Much quicker.

Are you of the opinion that the prophets, seers and revelators only give words at general conference for those who are "on the covenant path"? Do they ever speak to the rest of us? And since they really only want to talk to you guys, should the rest of us ignore them and pretend they aren't claiming to be prophets, seers, revelators...oracles for God or what-have-you?

There was nothing loaded about my question--unless, of course, you agree Renlund and the others often give out contradictory, useless, wrong information. You can easily answer it without showing any lack of faith in Renlund's calling. While I think it fits well with him and the rest of them, you don't have to think that. I'm just curious why you wish others didn't inspect their words. That should be welcomed, I figure.
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IHAQ
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by IHAQ »

It's simple.

1. Renlund says that the Prophet can receive revelation from God to break a commandment.

2. Renlund also says that any revelation that someone receives that's contrary to a commandment, comes from a false spirit.

How do you explain the inconsistency between 1 and 2?

3. Renlund says only Prophets can receive such a revelation (to break a commandment), yet for his example he cites a non-prophet (Nephi) receiving such a revelation. How to explain such a mutually exclusive contradiction given by an Apostle over the pulpit at General Conference when his talk has been prepared and delivered under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost? Does Renlund not realise Lehi was the Prophet at the point Laban was murdered?

4. If a non-prophet (such as Nephi) can receive revelation to break commandments. Why, in his talk, is Renlund so disparaging towards people that reached out to him claiming to have had such a revelation?
Last edited by IHAQ on Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:28 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:27 pm
Outsider > so, Mormons believe in personal revelation?

Mormon > Image
I would pose the same questions to you that I have presented to IHAQ and stem.

Enlighten us.

Regards,
MG
I would answer that your “church” is ran by men who don’t think pedophilia, pederastry, sexual assault, and rape aren’t crimes that merit jail time as a default setting. Everything follows from that. Neither you nor they possess any goddamn sense, “spiritual” or otherwise.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by malkie »

PseudoPaul wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:27 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:03 pm

How do you differentiate between that which is revelation and that which is from your own mind?
That's the problem, there is no way to make such a differentiation. In fact it's been demonstrated empirically that LDS people can be made to feel the spirit via the manipulation of clinical researchers. Revelation can only tell you how you feel about something, no more than that.
Not just via the manipulation of clinical researchers. Also, for years, via the manipulation of liars disguised as religious leaders.

How many members felt "the spirit" while listening to the lies of Paul H Dunn?

And, while we're about it, how many of Dunn's fellow leaders, including prophets, seers, and revelators, discerned that he was a liar? I mean, before Lynn Packer, who was not a senior church leader, discovered the truth. I'd guess zero.

[ waiting for the defense of "well, malkie, could you do better?" ]
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by Physics Guy »

Writers are supposed to have to learn to “kill their darlings”, meaning delete scenes that the author loves but that just do not work in the book. Many a first novel stumbles fatally because the author just could not remove that awesome scene that they wrote early on, even though its implications cripple the rest of the story.

Nephi killing Laban is one of those darlings that Smith should have killed. There were lots of better ways to get Nephi running away from Jerusalem with a holy Maguffin. Leaving the bizarre murder of Laban in the final draft was a rookie writer mistake.
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by drumdude »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:26 am
Writers are supposed to have to learn to “kill their darlings”, meaning delete scenes that the author loves but that just do not work in the book. Many a first novel stumbles fatally because the author just could not remove that awesome scene that they wrote early on, even though its implications cripple the rest of the story.

Nephi killing Laban is one of those darlings that Smith should have killed. There were lots of better ways to get Nephi running away from Jerusalem with a holy Maguffin. Leaving the bizarre murder of Laban in the final draft was a rookie writer mistake.
I am so grateful Smith put that red flag so close to the beginning. Saved me a lot of time.
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by JohnW »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:14 am
Renlund decided to talk about Personal Revelation and he gives an example of when it's not revelation...
A man once told me about his struggles to stabilize his family’s financial situation. He had the idea to embezzle funds as a solution, prayed about it, and felt he had received affirmative revelation to do so. I knew he had been deceived because he sought revelation contrary to a commandment of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith warned, “Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the Spirit of God.”22
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng
The point being that any revelation contrary to a commandment = false spirit.

He goes on...
Some might point out that Nephi violated a commandment when he slew Laban. However, this exception does not negate the rule—the rule that personal revelation will be in harmony with God’s commandments. No simple explanation of this episode is completely satisfactory, but let me highlight some aspects. The episode did not begin with Nephi asking if he could slay Laban. It was not something he wanted to do. Killing Laban was not for Nephi’s personal benefit but to provide scriptures to a future nation and a covenant people. And Nephi was sure that it was revelation—in fact, in this case, it was a commandment from God.23
The point being that a revelation contrary to a commandment = God giving revelation. Wait...what?

He also makes the point that only the Prophet can receive revelation about scriptures, the Church etc.
Years ago, I received a phone call from an individual who had been arrested for trespassing. He told me it had been revealed to him that additional scripture was buried under the ground floor of a building he tried to enter. He claimed that once he obtained the additional scripture, he knew he would receive the gift of translation, bring forth new scripture, and shape the doctrine and direction of the Church. I told him that he was mistaken, and he implored me to pray about it. I told him I would not. He became verbally abusive and ended the phone call.18

I did not need to pray about this request for one simple but profound reason: only the prophet receives revelation for the Church.
Yet he also explains that Nephi received revelation on behalf of the whole church despite the fact he wasn't the Prophet at that time, his Dad Lehi was.
Killing Laban was not for Nephi’s personal benefit but to provide scriptures to a future nation and a covenant people.
Here's a footnote to his talk that underpins his point that only the Prophet can receive a revelation contrary to an established commandment...
The Lord often does change, amend, or make exceptions to His revealed commandments, but these are made through prophetic revelation and not personal revelation. Prophetic revelation comes through God’s duly appointed prophet according to God’s wisdom and understanding.
But in the Nephi example God did a u-turn on Thou Shalt Not Kill through someone who wasn't God's duly appointed Prophet.

Did Renlund skip seminary and basic logic lessons when he was younger?
The basic internal inconsistencies and contradictions within his talk are staggering. Does nobody sense check this stuff?
Just generally curious here. Do you not allow for paradox? Yes, logical inconsistency merits further review, but there are things that are illogical and true.

I interpreted E. Renlund's talk as giving a strong warning that you shouldn't just follow any old emotion thinking it is the spirit. He then also discussed paradox to point out following the spirit is not as easy as just listening to your emotions. Those are too easily manipulated by yourself and others.
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by Marcus »

JohnW wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:03 am
IHAQ wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:14 am
Renlund decided to talk about Personal Revelation and he gives an example of when it's not revelation...

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng
The point being that any revelation contrary to a commandment = false spirit.

He goes on...

The point being that a revelation contrary to a commandment = God giving revelation. Wait...what?

He also makes the point that only the Prophet can receive revelation about scriptures, the Church etc.
Yet he also explains that Nephi received revelation on behalf of the whole church despite the fact he wasn't the Prophet at that time, his Dad Lehi was.


Here's a footnote to his talk that underpins his point that only the Prophet can receive a revelation contrary to an established commandment...
But in the Nephi example God did a u-turn on Thou Shalt Not Kill through someone who wasn't God's duly appointed Prophet.

Did Renlund skip seminary and basic logic lessons when he was younger?
The basic internal inconsistencies and contradictions within his talk are staggering. Does nobody sense check this stuff?
Just generally curious here. Do you not allow for paradox? Yes, logical inconsistency merits further review, but there are things that are illogical and true.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"paradox"?? in a conference talk? Are you serious? Good grief. The levels lds members are stooping to to justify nonsense is becoming ludicrous.
I interpreted E. Renlund's talk as giving a strong warning that you shouldn't just follow any old emotion thinking it is the spirit. He then also discussed paradox..
No, he did not.
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by dastardly stem »

JohnW wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:03 am
Just generally curious here. Do you not allow for paradox? Yes, logical inconsistency merits further review, but there are things that are illogical and true.

I interpreted E. Renlund's talk as giving a strong warning that you shouldn't just follow any old emotion thinking it is the spirit. He then also discussed paradox to point out following the spirit is not as easy as just listening to your emotions. Those are too easily manipulated by yourself and others.
Is it true the guy he called out in conference for thinking he had a revelation about finding scripture was actually inspired by God in thinking that? Or does the paradox only work on Nephi's situation? It seems to me if he supported the idea of paradox when it came to revelation he wouldn't have closed his mind to the possibility that the caller was receiving something from God simply because God can break the rules if he wants.

I think the Nephi story fits well with Joseph's early 19th century Christian heritage. God was supposed to be murderous. To Joseph God commanded murder at times and at other times was opposed to it. The goodness of it all depended on whether He commanded it or not. Of course when you read of God's murderous designs in the Old Testament or in Christian history, you often have to consider this is all simply man trying to justify their murderous intents. I suppose, if Nephi were real, the same could be said of him as well. Nephi reasoned to justify his intent to murder Laban, and wrote it out as if God instructed it. Or even if Nephi believed it, it may not really have been God. And if that's the case, any old revelation may not really have been from God. That seems most likely, all things considered.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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