Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

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IHAQ
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Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by IHAQ »

Renlund decided to talk about Personal Revelation and he gives an example of when it's not revelation...
A man once told me about his struggles to stabilize his family’s financial situation. He had the idea to embezzle funds as a solution, prayed about it, and felt he had received affirmative revelation to do so. I knew he had been deceived because he sought revelation contrary to a commandment of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith warned, “Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the Spirit of God.”22
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng
The point being that any revelation contrary to a commandment = false spirit.

He goes on...
Some might point out that Nephi violated a commandment when he slew Laban. However, this exception does not negate the rule—the rule that personal revelation will be in harmony with God’s commandments. No simple explanation of this episode is completely satisfactory, but let me highlight some aspects. The episode did not begin with Nephi asking if he could slay Laban. It was not something he wanted to do. Killing Laban was not for Nephi’s personal benefit but to provide scriptures to a future nation and a covenant people. And Nephi was sure that it was revelation—in fact, in this case, it was a commandment from God.23
The point being that a revelation contrary to a commandment = God giving revelation. Wait...what?

He also makes the point that only the Prophet can receive revelation about scriptures, the Church etc.
Years ago, I received a phone call from an individual who had been arrested for trespassing. He told me it had been revealed to him that additional scripture was buried under the ground floor of a building he tried to enter. He claimed that once he obtained the additional scripture, he knew he would receive the gift of translation, bring forth new scripture, and shape the doctrine and direction of the Church. I told him that he was mistaken, and he implored me to pray about it. I told him I would not. He became verbally abusive and ended the phone call.18

I did not need to pray about this request for one simple but profound reason: only the prophet receives revelation for the Church.
Yet he also explains that Nephi received revelation on behalf of the whole church despite the fact he wasn't the Prophet at that time, his Dad Lehi was.
Killing Laban was not for Nephi’s personal benefit but to provide scriptures to a future nation and a covenant people.
Here's a footnote to his talk that underpins his point that only the Prophet can receive a revelation contrary to an established commandment...
The Lord often does change, amend, or make exceptions to His revealed commandments, but these are made through prophetic revelation and not personal revelation. Prophetic revelation comes through God’s duly appointed prophet according to God’s wisdom and understanding.
But in the Nephi example God did a u-turn on Thou Shalt Not Kill through someone who wasn't God's duly appointed Prophet.

Did Renlund skip seminary and basic logic lessons when he was younger?
The basic internal inconsistencies and contradictions within his talk are staggering. Does nobody sense check this stuff?
MG 2.0
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by MG 2.0 »

Out of interest what are your views in regards to revelation from God? How? When?

How do you differentiate between that which is revelation and that which is from your own mind?

Are there any standards or markers that you personally use or follow to determine what is and isn’t revelation?

Do you believe that God gives revelation?

It’s easy to nitpick isn’t it?

My gut feeling is that Elder Renlund is more familiar with revelation from God than you ever will be.

But, maybe I’m mistaken. Enlighten us.

Always looking for ways to criticize the Brethren, aren’t you?

Regards,
MG
dastardly stem
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:03 pm
IHAQ wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:14 am
Renlund decided to talk about Personal Revelation and he gives an example of when it's not revelation...

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng
The point being that any revelation contrary to a commandment = false spirit.

He goes on...

The point being that a revelation contrary to a commandment = God giving revelation. Wait...what?

He also makes the point that only the Prophet can receive revelation about scriptures, the Church etc.
Yet he also explains that Nephi received revelation on behalf of the whole church despite the fact he wasn't the Prophet at that time, his Dad Lehi was.


Here's a footnote to his talk that underpins his point that only the Prophet can receive a revelation contrary to an established commandment...
But in the Nephi example God did a u-turn on Thou Shalt Not Kill through someone who wasn't God's duly appointed Prophet.

Did Renlund skip seminary and basic logic lessons when he was younger?
The basic internal inconsistencies and contradictions within his talk are staggering. Does nobody sense check this stuff?
Out of interest what are your views in regards to revelation from God? How? When?

How do you differentiate between that which is revelation and that which is from your own mind?

Are there any standards or markers that you personally use or follow to determine what is and isn’t revelation?

Do you believe that God gives revelation?

It’s easy to nitpick isn’t it?

My gut feeling is that Elder Renlund is more familiar with revelation from God than you ever will be.

But, maybe I’m mistaken. Enlighten us.

Always looking for ways to criticize the Brethren, aren’t you?

Regards,
MG
Can't really converse honestly with apologists. We're told to test the words of prophets and apostles. Then we try seeing if the output can reasonably be said to comport with God and reality. Tests get done...apologists complain...well, you aren't better than the Brethren. That's just bad to criticize their output. They're prophets of God, for crying aloud, of course they know more than you about revelation.

MG, these guys are claiming to be God's chosen prophets and apostles. Its on them to provide something useful. If we can't challenge their words and ideas, what are we to make of their claims?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Outsider > so, Mormons believe in personal revelation?

Mormon > Image
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
MG 2.0
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by MG 2.0 »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:11 pm
MG, these guys are claiming to be God's chosen prophets and apostles. Its on them to provide something useful. If we can't challenge their words and ideas, what are we to make of their claims?
My point in replying to IHAQ was to ask him what his own teachings are in regards to revelation with the intent of then discerning whether or not I should listen to and follow his teachings rather than Elder Renlunds.

If he’s got something better to offer, I’m all ears.

Same with you. I would pose the same questions I asked IHAQ to you.

Offer up something that will build up rather than tear down in regards to receiving personal or institutional revelation.

The questions are waiting to be answered. If you have something better to offer up than Elder Renlund, go for it. 😉

I find it interesting that secular humanists seem to think they have a ‘leg up’ on how revelation works.

Regards,
MG
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PseudoPaul
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by PseudoPaul »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:03 pm

How do you differentiate between that which is revelation and that which is from your own mind?
That's the problem, there is no way to make such a differentiation. In fact it's been demonstrated empirically that LDS people can be made to feel the spirit via the manipulation of clinical researchers. Revelation can only tell you how you feel about something, no more than that.
MG 2.0
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:27 pm
Outsider > so, Mormons believe in personal revelation?

Mormon > Image
I would pose the same questions to you that I have presented to IHAQ and stem.

Enlighten us.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by MG 2.0 »

PseudoPaul wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:27 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:03 pm

How do you differentiate between that which is revelation and that which is from your own mind?
That's the problem, there is no way to make such a differentiation. In fact it's been demonstrated empirically that LDS people can be made to feel the spirit via the manipulation of clinical researchers. Revelation can only tell you how you feel about something, no more than that.
Yep.The ‘god center’ of the brain. Interesting stuff. The question is whether manipulation of brain functions is the same as God inspiring the human mind.

Is there an exact one to one correlation?

Can you definitively answer that question?

To me it seems as though God might have ways of inspiring the human mind which don’t require ‘tickling’ the brain only.

Regards,
MG
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:27 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:11 pm
MG, these guys are claiming to be God's chosen prophets and apostles. Its on them to provide something useful. If we can't challenge their words and ideas, what are we to make of their claims?
My point in replying to IHAQ was to ask him what his own teachings are in regards to revelation with the intent of then discerning whether or not I should listen to and follow his teachings rather than Elder Renlunds.

If he’s got something better to offer, I’m all ears.

Same with you. I would pose the same questions I asked IHAQ to you.

Offer up something that will build up rather than tear down in regards to receiving personal or institutional revelation.

The questions are waiting to be answered. If you have something better to offer up than Elder Renlund, go for it. 😉

I find it interesting that secular humanists seem to think they have a ‘leg up’ on how revelation works.

Regards,
MG
That's a logically fallacious cop out. The talk rises or falls on its own merits.
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dastardly stem
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Re: Renlund ties himself in knots during General Conference

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:27 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:11 pm
MG, these guys are claiming to be God's chosen prophets and apostles. Its on them to provide something useful. If we can't challenge their words and ideas, what are we to make of their claims?
My point in replying to IHAQ was to ask him what his own teachings are in regards to revelation with the intent of then discerning whether or not I should listen to and follow his teachings rather than Elder Renlunds.

If he’s got something better to offer, I’m all ears.

Same with you. I would pose the same questions I asked IHAQ to you.

Offer up something that will build up rather than tear down in regards to receiving personal or institutional revelation.

The questions are waiting to be answered. If you have something better to offer up than Elder Renlund, go for it. 😉

I find it interesting that secular humanists seem to think they have a ‘leg up’ on how revelation works.

Regards,
MG
Is IHAQ or I claiming to have been called to a special calling from God and to speak for Him? I encourage you to test everything that's put to you. But you first ought to accept reason and logic which you have previously said you discard in favor of your personal hopes and desires. That makes it pretty difficult.

If a prophet is being unreasonable as IHAQ points out regarding Renlund's explanation what are listeners supposed to do? Pretend he didn't say what he said? Why should anyone accept another who claims to be God's special witness, prophet, seer, and revelator if that other teaches things that aren't good or useful?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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