IHAQ wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:31 am
The spirit constraining Nephi to kill the defenceless Laban despite Nephi's protestations and the commandment not to kill, bears a remarkable similarity to the account of an angel with a flaming sword constraining Joseph Smith to sleep with multiple women behind his wife's back despite the commandment not to commit adultery and despite Smith's self-proclaimed reluctance to do so...
The reason Renlund and JohnW and many more are okay with the contradiction between Nephi killing Laban and the commandment not to kill, and the contradiction between Smith's philandering and the commandment against adultery, is that they are stories in a book. It's not real to people now. When people in real life do things that the characters in the Book of Mormon did, it's not okay. Is Renlund saying that if Nelson claimed to have received revelation that he needed to kill the Pope in order to further the expansion of Mormonism, he'd be supportive in the same way he's supportive of Nephi's actions? Would the Pope's murder be seen by members as a paradox, like mistaking a gas leak for a water leak?
Yeah...I see these points and would still say there is some possible complications here. To believers Laban is more like Osama Bin Laden than the Pope. Killing Laban, the character, was justifiable in a book setting. I mean, for real, the guy himself was bloodthirsty ready to murder too, and if that were the case for this character a reader can imagine he likely already had tons of blood on his hands anyway. It'd be like asking, you know of a serial killer who goes uncaught for years. One night you happen upon him passed out drunk on the street. I mean granted, you could just call the police, but he's been evading that and getting away with it for years. Let's imagine he's somehow above the law and no one's been able to stop him. If you killed him as this opportunity presents itself to stop future killings are you really doing something bad? Nah...in some measures you could be justified. Granted the story in the Book of Mormon isn't presented that way, really. Nephi's not killing Laban to stop future murders. He's doing it so he can steal his possession that they apparently really need. But as a believer treating the Book of Mormon as authentic history this is not a case of Nephi murdering an innocent man. It's a case of Nephi executing a likely murderer, or at least one who intends to murder. So, to a believing mind it doesn't sound so bad to kill Laban for the sake of stealing his book so many generations don't dwindle in unbelief. Of course, oddly, many peoples around the world at that time, before and since, have dwindled in unbelief without God lifting his finger to help out. But...you know...believing takes a certain, "I'm special and others are not" attitude to maintain the charade.
As it is though, there's plenty not easy to swallow for believers anyway. Why? Because this is supposed to be in an Old Testament setting and in the Old Testament God is said to command the murder of many actual innocent people. He downright delights in his own actions causing the murder of people. One murder of a not so innocent dude is hardly worth being concerned about in that context. THat doesn't take away from the problem inherent in Renlund's talk though, as you've called it out. And I can't imagine why a believer like JohnW thinks this talk works in solving the problem of claimed revelation. I think as JohnW has said though, it does require one to think one has to see heavy amounts of complication and depth in this revelation phenomena. Unfortunately for his take it is quite simple and yet obviously problematic. That's how the mind deals with cognitive dissonance. he has to think these unbelievers simply can't get the depth and complication of personal revelation and how it works, otherwise the whole house of cards could come crashing down.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
