I wouldn’t know.
Regards,
MG
interesting. it's not every day you see a person openly admit their intent to troll.
so... 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:48 pmI too would like to see more transparency in the church. I would think that leaders admitting when an error in judgement has been made would be healthy.
I do disagree with you, however, in making a direct connection between the fact that church leaders do not always exercise perfect judgement with whether or not the church is led by and instituted by God.
Those two things are not mutually inclusive. They may be exclusive of each other.
The "institutional doctrine that "worldly ways" are inferior to the Church's ways" is a key point. Some members seem to feel they have to defend "the Church's ways" in all circumstances. the amount of twisting and turning this causes leaves the members hurt, but it is certainly the only openly accepted way, at least at the moment. It does not reflect well on the lds church, and continues to trap people in defending very bad positions.Dr Moore wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:37 pmI'm sure generations of church leaders actually did believe that the gospel of faith and repentance actually was more powerful at changing behavior than anything else. It's obvious now, on issues such as abuse, that their confidence was misplaced. An incredibly costly error.
The institution is not the faith, as much as sitting leaders want members to conflate the two. But it doesn't matter for members -- that ship has sailed. And while past mistaken beliefs of leaders could be forgiven with proper admission, change, and restitution, unfortunately, we're actually seeing the opposite. The denial and cover-ups go deep because to admit being wrong is no different from church leaders admitting the church isn't actually led by actual Jesus.
This institutional doctrine that "worldly ways" are inferior to the Church's ways (a.k.a., "God's way") has predictably failed to change enough and fast enough. This is all arrogance. It causes actual harm.
One of my most believing relatives is losing their faith in real time over these emerging revelations about church handling of abuse cases. She is heartbroken to learn that the church has fallen so far short on something so critical. She believes the church follows inspiration, and as such operates ahead of the curve. She's realizing that the organization does worse than the curve by sticking to its "better than" narrative at moments when it could have evolved constructively and transparently.
Did he like it?
Brother MG, please answer my questions about the plan of salvation.
Oof! I guess “as man is, God once was” should be all inclusive. Meaning, in Mormon theology Elohim could very well have been the worst of all Celestial inheritors from his planet. Which makes Jim Bennet’s argument - that Mormon god is a real jerk - a rather astute apologetic.doubtingthomas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pmIs it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
Just out of curiosity…and not that I necessarily agree with what is being said here…but were you or were you not a jerk previously in your life even though obviously you’re not now?Dr Moore wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:17 pmOof! I guess “as man is, God once was” should be all inclusive. Meaning, in Mormon theology Elohim could very well have been the worst of all Celestial inheritors from his planet. Which makes Jim Bennet’s argument - that Mormon god is a real jerk - a rather astute apologetic.doubtingthomas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pmIs it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
[FR1, -cp-]
This is what MG is defending. Tell me again what changes are in place to ensure this doesn’t happen again?LDS member “Ron” abused a child and the victim, now an adult, writes the following:
"I met the man who sexually molested me, (I'll call him Ron,) at a priesthood meeting during this time of turmoil at home. He had been assigned as my Teacher's Quorum advisor. At first, Ron was just another man in the ward. We would occasionally meet at his home for presidency meetings, but other than that, I would only see Ron only at Church. I contacted Ron two years ago, in 1996, and confronted him about what he had done to me. He was serving as counselor in a Southern California Stake Presidency.
Sadly, he denied any wrong doing [gee, what a surprise a Mormon man is a liar] , and claimed shock by my allegations. He sent me a letter adamantly stating that nothing inappropriate had ever happened between us, and that I had ". . . betrayed and misrepresented his investment in my life; of time, energy and care.".
Curiously, a second letter followed where his tone had considerably mellowed, but unfortunately, he would not admit to any wrong doing, nor would he apologize for the sexual and emotional devastation he had caused me. (He owns a good chunk of that Mormon 'smugness' other readers have mentioned). What Ron did not remember was, I had kept a LOVE letter of his all these years. Even back then, I knew to keep this letter. No one--not even a family member--has ever expressed love for me like Ron did in this letter. I took Ron's correspondence, including his twenty-some year old love letter, copied it, and mailed it to his Stake President. Five months later, I finally received a letter from his Stake President. He showed general concern and hoped I would be able to move on with my life. He also said that he acted on my letter and called Ron in and talked to him about my allegations. Unfortunately, the Stake President felt Ron was "owed confidentiality" regarding their meeting. All I thought was, "Confidentiality for a perpetrator? This is exactly how molesters thrive!"
Since Ron was in the bishopric when he sexually abused me, I wrote back to the Stake President and informed him that a church court must take place. This is Church protocol. This was in June, 1997, and I have not as of yet, received a response and have been ignored."
Well, lets see.doubtingthomas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pm
Is it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
ok. so...you think 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'Marcus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:35 pmso... 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:48 pm
...I do disagree with you, however, in making a direct connection between the fact that church leaders do not always exercise perfect judgement with whether or not the church is led by and instituted by God.
Those two things are not mutually inclusive. They may be exclusive of each other.
Do you realize what you are arguing?
marcus wrote:
The "institutional doctrine that "worldly ways" are inferior to the Church's ways" is a key point. Some members seem to feel they have to defend "the Church's ways" in all circumstances. the amount of twisting and turning this causes leaves the members hurt, but it is certainly the only openly accepted way, at least at the moment. It does not reflect well on the lds church, and continues to trap people in defending very bad positions.
1.5. Leaders are given a certain degree of latitude to make mistakes and therefore AT TIMES failing to exercise perfect judgement.This latitude is given by a God who values agency/choice/creativity. Along the way he makes course corrections according to his own mind and will.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:45 amok. so...you think 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'
What does this imply? either
1) leaders who make mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement is NOT consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.