Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

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MG 2.0
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:50 pm
[FR2, -cp-]
I wouldn’t know.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by Marcus »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:04 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:06 pm
...MG jumps in to troll...And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll
The fact that you continually respond to my posts seems to demonstrate that you are not able to discipline yourself to the tried and true method by which you can simply make me disappear.

Starve me. 😉

...Cluck cluck.
interesting. it's not every day you see a person openly admit their intent to troll.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:48 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:37 pm
The denial and cover-ups go deep because to admit being wrong is no different from church leaders admitting the church isn't actually led by actual Jesus.
I too would like to see more transparency in the church. I would think that leaders admitting when an error in judgement has been made would be healthy.

I do disagree with you, however, in making a direct connection between the fact that church leaders do not always exercise perfect judgement with whether or not the church is led by and instituted by God.

Those two things are not mutually inclusive. They may be exclusive of each other.
so... 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'

Do you realize what you are arguing? Based on your admission you are here to troll, I'm thinking you are not paying attention to the argument and are just intruding to intrude.

Back to the conversation then.
Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:37 pm
I'm sure generations of church leaders actually did believe that the gospel of faith and repentance actually was more powerful at changing behavior than anything else. It's obvious now, on issues such as abuse, that their confidence was misplaced. An incredibly costly error.

The institution is not the faith, as much as sitting leaders want members to conflate the two. But it doesn't matter for members -- that ship has sailed. And while past mistaken beliefs of leaders could be forgiven with proper admission, change, and restitution, unfortunately, we're actually seeing the opposite. The denial and cover-ups go deep because to admit being wrong is no different from church leaders admitting the church isn't actually led by actual Jesus.

This institutional doctrine that "worldly ways" are inferior to the Church's ways (a.k.a., "God's way") has predictably failed to change enough and fast enough. This is all arrogance. It causes actual harm.

One of my most believing relatives is losing their faith in real time over these emerging revelations about church handling of abuse cases. She is heartbroken to learn that the church has fallen so far short on something so critical. She believes the church follows inspiration, and as such operates ahead of the curve. She's realizing that the organization does worse than the curve by sticking to its "better than" narrative at moments when it could have evolved constructively and transparently.
The "institutional doctrine that "worldly ways" are inferior to the Church's ways" is a key point. Some members seem to feel they have to defend "the Church's ways" in all circumstances. the amount of twisting and turning this causes leaves the members hurt, but it is certainly the only openly accepted way, at least at the moment. It does not reflect well on the lds church, and continues to trap people in defending very bad positions.
MG 2.0
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:35 pm

Do you realize what you are arguing?
Ummm…yes. Otherwise I wouldn’t have said it.

Regards,
MG
doubtingthomas
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by doubtingthomas »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:00 pm

I was giving a response to Dr. Moore.
Did he like it?
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:53 pm
Ummm…yes. Otherwise I wouldn’t have said it.

Regards,
MG
Brother MG, please answer my questions about the plan of salvation.

Is it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Dr Moore
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by Dr Moore »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pm
Is it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
Oof! I guess “as man is, God once was” should be all inclusive. Meaning, in Mormon theology Elohim could very well have been the worst of all Celestial inheritors from his planet. Which makes Jim Bennet’s argument - that Mormon god is a real jerk - a rather astute apologetic.
MG 2.0
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:17 pm
doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pm
Is it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
Oof! I guess “as man is, God once was” should be all inclusive. Meaning, in Mormon theology Elohim could very well have been the worst of all Celestial inheritors from his planet. Which makes Jim Bennet’s argument - that Mormon god is a real jerk - a rather astute apologetic.
Just out of curiosity…and not that I necessarily agree with what is being said here…but were you or were you not a jerk previously in your life even though obviously you’re not now?

Assuming that you may have been somewhat of a jerk, how in the world did you get to the point that you’re at?

It’s amazing how far we can come, isn’t it?

Of course, some people were jerks, and still are.

What we might be able to agree on is that we ought to cut God some slack either way. He has to put up with a LOT of jerks. 🤣

Regards,
MG
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:06 pm
...MG jumps in to troll...And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:01 am
What we might be able to agree on is that we ought to cut God some slack either way. He has to put up with a LOT of jerks.
[FR1, -cp-]
LDS member “Ron” abused a child and the victim, now an adult, writes the following:

"I met the man who sexually molested me, (I'll call him Ron,) at a priesthood meeting during this time of turmoil at home. He had been assigned as my Teacher's Quorum advisor. At first, Ron was just another man in the ward. We would occasionally meet at his home for presidency meetings, but other than that, I would only see Ron only at Church. I contacted Ron two years ago, in 1996, and confronted him about what he had done to me. He was serving as counselor in a Southern California Stake Presidency.

Sadly, he denied any wrong doing [gee, what a surprise a Mormon man is a liar] , and claimed shock by my allegations. He sent me a letter adamantly stating that nothing inappropriate had ever happened between us, and that I had ". . . betrayed and misrepresented his investment in my life; of time, energy and care.".

Curiously, a second letter followed where his tone had considerably mellowed, but unfortunately, he would not admit to any wrong doing, nor would he apologize for the sexual and emotional devastation he had caused me. (He owns a good chunk of that Mormon 'smugness' other readers have mentioned). What Ron did not remember was, I had kept a LOVE letter of his all these years. Even back then, I knew to keep this letter. No one--not even a family member--has ever expressed love for me like Ron did in this letter. I took Ron's correspondence, including his twenty-some year old love letter, copied it, and mailed it to his Stake President. Five months later, I finally received a letter from his Stake President. He showed general concern and hoped I would be able to move on with my life. He also said that he acted on my letter and called Ron in and talked to him about my allegations. Unfortunately, the Stake President felt Ron was "owed confidentiality" regarding their meeting. All I thought was, "Confidentiality for a perpetrator? This is exactly how molesters thrive!"

Since Ron was in the bishopric when he sexually abused me, I wrote back to the Stake President and informed him that a church court must take place. This is Church protocol. This was in June, 1997, and I have not as of yet, received a response and have been ignored."
This is what MG is defending. Tell me again what changes are in place to ensure this doesn’t happen again?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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dantana
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by dantana »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:19 pm


Is it possible that God was once a child molester? Can child molesters repent and achieve exaltation?
Well, lets see.

1. God can make people drop dead while committing a sin, but only if they are perpetrating the grave sin of spilling their seed instead of implanting it. People like say, Ted Bundy and guys doing a mass killing in a grade school though get a pass.

2. God promises Jihadi warriors many hot chicks in heaven.

3. God hired Joseph Smith AND Bring-em-young to be his third and fourth favorite guys ever.

So, Yeah. God's got some issues.
Nobody gets to be a cowboy forever. - Lee Marvin/Monte Walsh
Marcus
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by Marcus »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:35 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:48 pm

...I do disagree with you, however, in making a direct connection between the fact that church leaders do not always exercise perfect judgement with whether or not the church is led by and instituted by God.

Those two things are not mutually inclusive. They may be exclusive of each other.
so... 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'

Do you realize what you are arguing?
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:53 pm
Ummm…yes. Otherwise I wouldn’t have said it...
ok. so...you think 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'

What does this imply? either

1) leaders who make mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement is NOT consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.

or

2) leaders who make mistakes, even though they are exercising perfect judgement IS consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.

or

3) leaders who don't make mistakes, even though they are not exercising perfect judgement IS consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.
or

4) leaders who don't make mistakes, and they are exercising perfect judgement IS consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.

3 and 4 imply no mistakes, which we clearly don't have.

2 implies the lds god leads a church where he has his leaders make mistakes because his 'perfect judgment' is to let leaders allow abusers to continue, even when he could stop it with normal human effort.

1 implies the lds leadership is not leadership that is led by a god, within a church instituted by that god.

(giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you don't read, if you meant

'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' DOES have overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God,' then the 4 outcomes are:

1) leaders who make mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement IS consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.

or

2) leaders who make mistakes, even though they are exercising perfect judgement IS NOT consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.

or

3) leaders who don't make mistakes, even though they are not exercising perfect judgement IS NOT consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.
or

4) leaders who don't make mistakes, and they are exercising perfect judgement IS NOT consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.

This conclusion is nonsensical. The only leaders consistent with being leaders of a church led by god are those without judgment, who make mistakes. Leaders who do better and even leaders who make mistakes but have good judgment are not associated with a god leading a church
. )

Back to the main analysis:

Conclusion: using your own analysis, and based on current events, the lds church leaders have failed to indicate they are leaders of a church led by and instituted by a god, or else they are following a god who allows abuse to happen by including it in his so-called leaders' perfect judgment.

This is what i meant by members of the lds church being trapped into defending very bad positions:
marcus wrote:
The "institutional doctrine that "worldly ways" are inferior to the Church's ways" is a key point. Some members seem to feel they have to defend "the Church's ways" in all circumstances. the amount of twisting and turning this causes leaves the members hurt, but it is certainly the only openly accepted way, at least at the moment. It does not reflect well on the lds church, and continues to trap people in defending very bad positions.
MG 2.0
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Re: Church Sent Patients to Sex Therapist — Even After Being Accused of Abuse

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:45 am
Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:35 pm

so... 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'

Do you realize what you are arguing?
ok. so...you think 'leaders making mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement' has no overlap with 'the lds church being led by and instituted by God.'

What does this imply? either

1) leaders who make mistakes by not exercising perfect judgement is NOT consistent with those leaders being leaders of a church led by and instituted by god.
1.5. Leaders are given a certain degree of latitude to make mistakes and therefore AT TIMES failing to exercise perfect judgement.This latitude is given by a God who values agency/choice/creativity. Along the way he makes course corrections according to his own mind and will.

I like to think that the way God works with his children, including leaders, might be similar to the Montessori method used in education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education

I’m interested in the fact that you want to place limitations on God and how he works in the world. Setting those limitations and ‘dying by the sword’ defending your dogmatic requirements may be a root cause of your atheistic worldview.

Just hazarding a guess.

Be careful, Marcus you are consorting with an enemy troll. 😉

I’m somewhat amazed that your response didn’t simply blank out everything I said and then say,“ Ok, back to the topic!”

Thanks for wanting/deciding to engage.

Regards,
MG
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