Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

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drumdude
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Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by drumdude »

DCP wrote:Will religious universities continue to be permitted to set their own behavioral standards for students (and, for that matter, for faculty and administrators) if those standards conflict with Western society’s rising orthodoxy on gender and sexuality? Should they be permitted to do so? New York City’s Yeshiva University, an Orthodox Jewish institution, has recently become a battleground for different viewpoints on that question.

A Catholic perspective: “Religious Liberty Must Prevail for Yeshiva University”

Forward (implicitly taking a rather different position, a Jewish publication mentions Brigham Young University): “As Pride club takes on Yeshiva University, LGBTQ students at other religious colleges take notice: Two other LGBTQ discrimination lawsuits are moving through the courts”

Deseret News: “The religion cases to watch in the Supreme Court’s new term: How many religion-related cases will the Supreme Court end up hearing this term?”

National Review: “Federal Court Rules for Catholic School That Fired Teacher in Same-Sex Union”

On a possibly related matter, here’s a recent ten-minute video-news segment that you might find of interest:

“Is LDS Culture Under Attack? From a recent chant at a BYU away game to several documentaries to various news articles in recent times, there tends to be a lot of negativity surrounding the word “Mormon” these days”
Of course Dan doesn't ask this question, he instead frames it as being wrongfully "cancelled" and having religious freedoms taken away.

One is, in our great country, free to be as bigoted as they like. But institutions like the federal government and NCAA do not have an obligation to engage with it and support it. And I would argue they have a strong moral obligation to disconnect themselves from it.
MG 2.0
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by MG 2.0 »

Where does religious freedom come in? What does religious freedom really mean if it doesn’t apply to schools that have certain religious ideals that they live by?

Should they be persecuted for that? If the government and/or NCAA prohibits participation of religious institutions isn’t that a form of religious persecution?

Just how important is the Free Exercise Clause?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause

Does it apply in the instance that you are concerned with?

Regards,
MG
Marcus
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by Marcus »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:29 pm
One is, in our great country, free to be as bigoted as they like. But institutions like the federal government and NCAA do not have an obligation to engage with it and support it. And I would argue they have a strong moral obligation to disconnect themselves from it.
agreed. BYU has no obligation to participate in NCAA sports, or take federal money, if they want to have rules that violate the policies of those institutions. insisting that they be allowed to benefit without being willing to follow the rules of the NCAA is an unrealistic and immoral expectation. It is not removing "religious freedom," it is a natural consequence of being included in that group.
drumdude
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:50 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:29 pm
Of course Dan doesn't ask this question, he instead frames it as being wrongfully "cancelled" and having religious freedoms taken away.

One is, in our great country, free to be as bigoted as they like. But institutions like the federal government and NCAA do not have an obligation to engage with it and support it. And I would argue they have a strong moral obligation to disconnect themselves from it.
Where does religious freedom come in? What does religious freedom really mean if it doesn’t apply to schools that have certain religious ideals that they live by?

Should they be persecuted for that? If the government and/or NCAA prohibits participation of religious institutions isn’t that a form of religious persecution?

Just how important is the Free Exercise Clause?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause

Does it apply in the instance that you are concerned with?

Regards,
MG
MG,

Did you make this same argument prior to 1978?

How about prior to 1890?
MG 2.0
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:52 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:50 pm
Where does religious freedom come in? What does religious freedom really mean if it doesn’t apply to schools that have certain religious ideals that they live by?

Should they be persecuted for that? If the government and/or NCAA prohibits participation of religious institutions isn’t that a form of religious persecution?

Just how important is the Free Exercise Clause?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause

Does it apply in the instance that you are concerned with?

Regards,
MG
MG,

Did you make this same argument prior to 1978?

How about prior to 1890?
You didn’t answer my questions.

Regards,
MG
drumdude
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:59 am
drumdude wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:52 am
MG,

Did you make this same argument prior to 1978?

How about prior to 1890?
You didn’t answer my questions.

Regards,
MG
My answer is that your argument is as outdated as those made in defense of polygamy and the racist temple ban. And equally ineffective.

No one is stopping the church from doing whatever it wants, the argument is if it should be excluded from beneficial programs.
MG 2.0
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:25 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:59 am
You didn’t answer my questions.

Regards,
MG
My answer is that your argument is as outdated as those made in defense of polygamy and the racist temple ban. And equally ineffective.

No one is stopping the church from doing whatever it wants, the argument is if it should be excluded from beneficial programs.
That’s a non answer to my questions.

Thanks anyway.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by MG 2.0 »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:50 pm
Where does religious freedom come in? What does religious freedom really mean if it doesn’t apply to schools that have certain religious ideals that they live by?

Should they be persecuted for that? If the government and/or NCAA prohibits participation of religious institutions isn’t that a form of religious persecution?

Just how important is the Free Exercise Clause?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause

Does it apply in the instance that you are concerned with?

Regards,
MG
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:08 am
drumdude wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:29 pm
One is, in our great country, free to be as bigoted as they like. But institutions like the federal government and NCAA do not have an obligation to engage with it and support it. And I would argue they have a strong moral obligation to disconnect themselves from it.
agreed. BYU has no obligation to participate in NCAA sports, or take federal money, if they want to have rules that violate the policies of those institutions. insisting that they be allowed to benefit without being willing to follow the rules of the NCAA is an unrealistic and immoral expectation. It is not removing "religious freedom," it is a natural consequence of being included in that group.
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Should BYU continue receiving federal funding and participating in NCAA while being anti-LGBT?

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:50 pm
Where does religious freedom come in? What does religious freedom really mean if it doesn’t apply to schools that have certain religious ideals that they live by?

Should they be persecuted for that? If the government and/or NCAA prohibits participation of religious institutions isn’t that a form of religious persecution?

Just how important is the Free Exercise Clause?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause

Does it apply in the instance that you are concerned with?

Regards,
MG
One thing we know is that the Constitution's guarantee of the free exercise of religion is not absolute -- this is true of all rights guaranteed by the Constitution. So, it's a question of line drawing. Start at the core -- the government can't throw you in jail for being a member of the LDS church or for worshipping in your meeting house. You may take that for granted, but it's a pretty big deal. Go back to the original colonies and look at the persecution of some religious sects by others that controlled the government. Look at other countries around the world where certain sects are outlawed and actively persecuted.

An important part of that freedom is also the ability to exclude. Mormons get to set the boundaries on who gets to be a part of their religion. Per the Supreme Court, the government can't get involved in defining who gets to belong to the church, who gets to run the church, who gets to hold the priesthood, etc. This freedom is also not trivial. And, unlike other entities, groups of religious folks are free to discriminate on any basis they choose: race, ethnicity, sex, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Government regulation of churches, under current law, can happen only if the regulations are generally applicable and are not targeted specifically at religion. So, Native religions cannot legally use marijuana or peyote as part of their religious ceremonies because of drug laws that apply to everyone and are not targeted at natives.

But beyond that core, the notion of what should constitute the "free exercise of religion" becomes debatable. Why should we consider running a school the exercise of religion? Why should we consider the owning of a hospital the free exercise of religion? Why should we consider owning a for-profit business the free exercise of religion?

Once religion moves away from its core of being able to worship your God of choice without interference from the government, the right of free exercise runs smack into other rights of other people. In the case of the NCAA, we're talking about the right of free association, another right guaranteed by the first amendment. As an association, the NCAA has the right to determine who can be a member and who cannot. And it has ever right to say, if you don't treat your students according to the rules we set, you can't be a member. Just as the LDS church can decide its own rules for how it will treat gay or non-binary folks, other organizations get to decide how to treat organizations they believe discriminate against gay or non-binary folks. People are free to be intolerant in their free exercise of religion, but that doesn't require other people to be tolerant of that intolerance.

You can cry persecution all you want. If you want to play that card, the LDS church persecutes gay and non-binary folks. The free exercise clause doesn't shield religions folks from criticism or force other folks to associate with them.
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