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The idea of Mormon afterlife was so depressing to me. I couldn't imagine finding joy in being raised in exaltation. What a mess!

After working out 150 billion or so spirit babies God says, "there that ought to be enough to get us going." Soon though a third of those, some 50 billion, rebelled against his plan because it upset one particular noble and great one. "How dare he not select Lucifer who wanted to get everyone back to a joyous union?" they sang as they prepared for battle against an apparently all-knowing and all-powerful one.

"Off with you to suffer in outer darkness" cried God, after they were defeated in some sort of battle. "Some more of these bastards will be joining you someday. You may have power to bruise his heal but he'll have power to crush your head" or something. I guess that meant God wanted to use these defeated souls to tease and tempt His favored children generating adversity to strengthen them. But also, as the sad result will show, tying up the others in chains as they're dragged back to outer darkness. "It'd been better you were never born" the Great God thunders at the day of their judgment.

Picking the story back up:

"Wait", said God just as he started sending some to their mortal sojourns, "I need to put a vail over your memory so you don't remember me, ensuring many of you won't come back to me...

"No, you chose this--no backing out now. Some of you might, just might, get strong enough to come back and even get to be gods yourselves. This vail is necessary for you to achieve that.

"I don't know...it just is. Don't fret though, I'll send this other noble and great character down sometime into earth's existence and he'll walk around on an obscure spot for a while until some of you decide to kill him (ya dammed devils)...and...For some reason his death will be meaningful and will give you a chance to come back.

"I don't know that's just how it is. Just believe in him, if you get a chance.

"A 'chance' because I'm not supposed to...errrr...I won't give anyone much reason to believe in him or me for that matter...so it'll be tough. But, just try. It'll be for your good. Cheer up...it'll work out ok.

"Yeahh...yeahh..true some of you are less valiant and it's likely most of you won't have much chance to be Gods, but I stagger ya a bit.

"yes, I"m saving some noble and great ones for the end. I have to. That's how the little tiny Church I finally get settled will get bishops, Stake Presidents, yea, even, apostles.

"I don't know what makes ya noble and great...some of you just are. You're a bit more valiant than some of the rest of ya.

"Yes, that group over there were the "fence sitters" when your siblings got upset. And its true they will most definitely not have a legit shot in all of this, but that's their fault...."

Back when I was trying to stay on board:

"Oh boy" I wondered, "can't wait until I might someday be making a bunch of spirit babies, many of which will be made for the sole purpose of suffering eternally(?). I can't wait to watch the rest of them live wretched lives, well, most of them anyway. For some reason my life's been good, but apparently most have it rough. I can't wait to see most suffering ungodly pain, loneliness etc. I can't wait to sit and watch all of that while doing nothing to help out except maybe send a few good vibes to those who believe enough to reach out to me...or I mean reach out to me with sincerity. But those few who I (?) choose from the many I(?) call will get crowned with glory and honor for all these silly sounding arbitrary reasons(?).

"I mean can't wait.... Oh, yeah...and these crowned folks gotta still worship and praise me forever?

"Maybe it sounds terrible a bunch of people are suffering forever on this plan, but some of will be happy(?)." <gulp> "I'm so happy looking forward to all of this."

It was nice accepting real hell was believing this...real hell would have certainly been getting exalted into God's grand kingdom.

"Oh what's this? Time to go again? Time to work out another 150 billion to start the whole process again? Oh God! I can't wait!"

"Don't invoke my name and lament to me", my Heavenly Daddy in the hierarchy just above me says. "You chose this path just like I did before you. We have no choice but to play along now."

"Wait...you told me free agency was essential for the plan and once it was all acheived we'd be free to choose some more..."

"I know. I finally realized the same about the time you are now...nope...Not free. The plan was set in motion forever ago and we can't really change it."

Oh boy what joy!

I think...I think believers go along with this not because they are awful people who play out the logic of the teachings and see how terrible it all would be but because they stop thinking as soon as they feel excited about continuing life after death...or something. I don't know...what do you think? Why does anyone go along with this?

I know I specified this for Mormonism, but it works for Christianity in general too. Since it seems to play out similarly with saved vs those who aren't saved and misery for many. Why do believers go along with such tragedy and think its a good thing?

I completely disagree that it plays out the same way as Christianity.



Christianity is 2000 years old. In those 2000 years, they have become (on the whole) much less fundamentalist and less sure about God's plan and the afterlife. Catholicism calls these "mysteries." They don't presume to know much at all about what the afterlife will be like. Being in God's presence is a metaphor, God and things around God are understood to be incomprehensible to us.

In contrast, Mormonism arises in the 1800s. Post enlightenment. With a strong desire to make everything physical and explainable with physical processes. Physical bodies. Physical sex. Physical heaven (Kolob.) This leads to ridiculous theology as you point out. And the idea that we will be having sex trillions of years from now, making trillions upon trillions more children. Eating green Jello for the trillionth time at the trillionth family reunion. God is a physical man, all of this happens in the physical universe. None of it makes any sense.

So I think Mormons and ex-Mormons need to realize that Joseph's theology is very, very different to traditional Christianity.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:37 pm

I completely disagree that it plays out the same way as Christianity.



Christianity is 2000 years old. In those 2000 years, they have become (on the whole) much less fundamentalist and less sure about God's plan and the afterlife. Catholicism calls these "mysteries." They don't presume to know much at all about what the afterlife will be like. Being in God's presence is a metaphor, God and things around God are understood to be incomprehensible to us.

In contrast, Mormonism arises in the 1800s. Post enlightenment. With a strong desire to make everything physical and explainable with physical processes. Physical bodies. Physical sex. Physical heaven (Kolob.) This leads to ridiculous theology as you point out. And the idea that we will be having sex trillions of years from now, making trillions upon trillions more children. Eating green Jello for the trillionth time at the trillionth family reunion. God is a physical man, all of this happens in the physical universe. None of it makes any sense.

So I think Mormons and ex-Mormons need to realize that Joseph's theology is very, very different to traditional Christianity.

I hear ya. It's different. But, I don't know what the devil is doing on a Christianity that saves everyone. Most Christians tend to think there is a literal hell and a literal devil and many people will be tied up there for eternity. It sounds basically as miserable.

I'm glad Christianity has changed in many ways. And its true many don't claim to really know what the saved will be doing, besides being happy they aren't dammed to hell like the rest of them. I get the same itch on Christianity as I do with Mormonism--it sounds just as hellish to be saved then not saved. I'd hate to be sitting in ease and comfort while others are suffering in the worst kind of suffering possible.

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:41 pm

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:37 pm

I completely disagree that it plays out the same way as Christianity.



Christianity is 2000 years old. In those 2000 years, they have become (on the whole) much less fundamentalist and less sure about God's plan and the afterlife. Catholicism calls these "mysteries." They don't presume to know much at all about what the afterlife will be like. Being in God's presence is a metaphor, God and things around God are understood to be incomprehensible to us.

In contrast, Mormonism arises in the 1800s. Post enlightenment. With a strong desire to make everything physical and explainable with physical processes. Physical bodies. Physical sex. Physical heaven (Kolob.) This leads to ridiculous theology as you point out. And the idea that we will be having sex trillions of years from now, making trillions upon trillions more children. Eating green Jello for the trillionth time at the trillionth family reunion. God is a physical man, all of this happens in the physical universe. None of it makes any sense.

So I think Mormons and ex-Mormons need to realize that Joseph's theology is very, very different to traditional Christianity.

I hear ya. It's different. But, I don't know what the devil is doing on a Christianity that saves everyone. Most Christians tend to think there is a literal hell and a literal devil and many people will be tied up there for eternity. It sounds basically as miserable.

I'm glad Christianity has changed in many ways. And its true many don't claim to really know what the saved will be doing, besides being happy they aren't dammed to hell like the rest of them. I get the same itch on Christianity as I do with Mormonism--it sounds just as hellish to be saved then not saved. I'd hate to be sitting in ease and comfort while others are suffering in the worst kind of suffering possible.

From my limited personal experience, a lot of Christians are putting way, way less emphasis on the devil and hell these days. More fundamentalist Christians have been crying about it for decades.

I think it's for the reasons you point out - Satan and Hell don't make any sense with Jesus and God. So they throw out what doesn't make sense and hold on to what does.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:45 pm

From my limited personal experience, a lot of Christians are putting way, way less emphasis on the devil and hell these days. More fundamentalist Christians have been crying about it for decades.

I think it's for the reasons you point out - Satan and Hell don't make any sense with Jesus and God. So they throw out what doesn't make sense and hold on to what does.

I'm reminded of DCP. He used to proudly declare Mormonism was almost completely universalist, suggesting Mormonism was better than Traditional Christianity. I be like "sending a third of all of your children to hell before it all starts doesn't sound so universalist to me."

I really like the idea of an afterlife where we can all be young, healthy, and around our loved ones. That is preferable to thoughts of nothingness.

Moksha wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:54 pm

I really like the idea of an afterlife where we can all be young, healthy, and around our loved ones. That is preferable to thoughts of nothingness.

What are thoughts in eternity? They may be nothing. If after we die we all get to be young and see loved ones for forever, what are thoughts? I don't really know. Maybe that's why I always had such a tough time with it.

I appreciate this thought, though, Moksha. I do believe most Mormon folk take their thoughts about that far on the afterworld and leave the rest as "I don't really know". I could never get the thought you mentioned though. Every time I tried I'd go off worried that too many would be sent to suffer and it made a thought of joy sitting with family feel like the ultimate state of misery to me.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:45 pm

From my limited personal experience, a lot of Christians are putting way, way less emphasis on the devil and hell these days. More fundamentalist Christians have been crying about it for decades.

I think it's for the reasons you point out - Satan and Hell don't make any sense with Jesus and God. So they throw out what doesn't make sense and hold on to what does.

I thought about starting another thread on Traditional Christianity because it's so different as you point out. But I won't.

Traditional Christianity bothers me because its all set up so much different. God is a wispy nothingness which none of us will ever be like. He sat in no space or time, as immaterial mind (which is really just nothing) and decided he wanted some worshippers so he whipped them up out of nothing and sent them blindly to suffer a mortal life, after having started a chain reaction that eventually led to a habitable world in a nearly endless sea of space? And after the world was done up and buttoned over the saved remain subject to this nothing spot sitting endlessly in nowheresville? while some, however many, get sent to hell in a handbasket? or as some more modern liberal Christians think, will get annihilated back to non-existence because, well, they didn't believe the right stuff?

I mean if God was all powerful and could create any old place to send worshippers to, why create a place with so much pain and suffering?

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:01 pm

I appreciate this thought, though, Moksha. I do believe most Mormon folk take their thoughts about that far on the afterworld and leave the rest as "I don't really know". I could never get the thought you mentioned though. Every time I tried I'd go off worried that too many would be sent to suffer and it made a thought of joy sitting with family feel like the ultimate state of misery to me.

Buying into Mormon speculations of eternity seems a bit extreme, but yearning for a positive alternative to nothingness seems comforting.

I am hoping my ward comes up with some yummy funeral potatoes for my few mourners.

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:09 pm

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 12, 2022 5:45 pm

From my limited personal experience, a lot of Christians are putting way, way less emphasis on the devil and hell these days. More fundamentalist Christians have been crying about it for decades.

I think it's for the reasons you point out - Satan and Hell don't make any sense with Jesus and God. So they throw out what doesn't make sense and hold on to what does.

I thought about starting another thread on Traditional Christianity because it's so different as you point out. But I won't.

Traditional Christianity bothers me because its all set up so much different. God is a wispy nothingness which none of us will ever be like. He sat in no space or time, as immaterial mind (which is really just nothing) and decided he wanted some worshippers so he whipped them up out of nothing and sent them blindly to suffer a mortal life, after having started a chain reaction that eventually led to a habitable world in a nearly endless sea of space? And after the world was done up and buttoned over the saved remain subject to this nothing spot sitting endlessly in nowheresville? while some, however many, get sent to hell in a handbasket? or as some more modern liberal Christians think, will get annihilated back to non-existence because, well, they didn't believe the right stuff?

I mean if God was all powerful and could create any old place to send worshippers to, why create a place with so much pain and suffering?

The liberal Christians I know begin by saying they don't know. But then say that they believe that in the end, being with God will end all of our suffering and worries. And that Jesus' sacrifice is essentially a promise from God that everyone will be saved. Since Jesus is the final judge, and most Christians don't see Jesus sending anyone to everlasting torment.

The main point of the New Testament, as I read it, is that Jesus is begging us to stop worrying about all of this. He is trying to explain that all of these earthly concerns do not matter after death. That the only thing that matters after death is love. In a very whispy, immaterial, but overwhelmingly good sense.

There are of course verses to suggest otherwise, but we also know that the New Testament is not at all a completely accurate portrait of Jesus. So the general character of Jesus, IMHO, is what should be gleaned from reading it.