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Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:29 am
by drumdude
“Simon Southerton” wrote: Mormon social media is in a feeding frenzy at the moment, with remarkable claims that evidence of horses has finally been found in Mexico. Jasmine, at SpripturePlus has been gloating about the supposed evidence.

The discovery of horse bones from the Book of Mormon period would be paradigm busting research if true. There is a broad scientific consensus view that most large herbivores that greeted the First Americans were eaten into extinction soon after the ice age ended roughly 13,000 years ago. It would be extremely surprising if horses survived alongside highly skilled indigenous hunters for over 10,000 years.

The scientific research some Mormons are excited about is by Wade Miller et al. (2022) 74 (1): Article 5 Post-Pleistocene horses (Equus) from Mexico. The Texas Journal of Science

This is my (Simon Southerton) response to the science

My first red flag is that the lead author of the research, Wade Miller, is a Mormon apologist. He already knows, due to his belief in the Book of Mormon, that horses were there. Miller is a retired BYU geology professor and has recently spoken at Mormon apologetic conferences. He likely believes the events of the Book of Mormon played out in southern Mexico. This is a concern because Miller has a significant conflict of interest. I wonder how many of his co-authors are also LDS?

The next issue that troubles me is that the paper is published in a very obscure journal. If you want to break a paradigm you need to publish in major journals that all scientists read. In this particular case, why wasn’t the research published in a respected archaeological or anthropological journal? The paper may have previously been submitted to these types of journals but rejected for reasons that may be related to issues I discuss below.

Another problem I had with the paper was the inference by the authors that there was “growing information” which implies horses may have survived long after the Late Pleistocene extinction event in Mexico. To back up this claim they cite two papers from the 1800s, one from 1967 and four papers in 2000, 2001, 2004 and 2008 by M. Pichardo. None of these papers provide solid evidence of New World horses surviving into the holocene.

The major problem I have with the paper is that the radiocarbon dates were NOT from collagen purified from the horse bones (the gold standard). The dates were from charcoal or wood next to the bones. If you are not able to isolate collagen, you are at the mercy of the soil environment which can contaminate the bones AND the adjacent charcoal or wood with much younger carbon.

A major source of younger contaminating carbon in soils is rainwater, which contains dissolved carbon dioxide. This very dilute carbonic acid percolates down the soil profile. Evaporation at the soil surface eventually causes the carbonic acid to precipitate out as calcium carbonate, a solid material found in many soils and caves.

From my reading of the paper it is clear that the soils where Miller et al. located the horse bones were rich in carbonates. These are direct quotes from the paper.

“The overall geology of the region was presented by Cortés & Flores-Díaz (2012) who indicated that carbonate layers extend to a depth of about 7 m. The exposed stratigraphic layers (Fig. 3) represent predominantly spring and paludal deposits along with some shallow lacustrine deposition. While the exposed strata from which fossil specimens were collected and presented here show some variation, the major components consist of various forms of tufa (precipitated calcium carbonate), thus of the roughly 5 m of exposed stratigraphic units, all have a high carbonate signature.”

Using currently available methods it would be virtually impossible to date these Mexican horse bones accurately. The bones, and the charcoal and wood adjacent to the bones, would almost certainly be contaminated with much younger carbonates.

The authors are aware of the problem of drawing conclusions from the charcoal and wood dates. They make this surprising admission in the paper, which almost sounds like a response to a reviewer.

“We completely agree with statements that an assessed charcoal sample recovered adjacent to a skeletal element does not necessarily create a precise age for that vertebrate specimen. However, some radiocarbon dated charcoal samples were recovered from within millimeters of Equus bones.”

However, if the soil is contaminated with carbonates, it doesn’t matter how close you get to the bones. Even the bones are contaminated! Everything is contaminated with carbonates and the dates would be meaningless. I suspect all careful scientists would be very cautious about the radiocarbon dates reported in the paper, apart from the dates obtained from collagen extracted from post-Columbus horses.

Another reason the dates of the charcoal and wood are less reliable is that some soils may have been disturbed in the past by a flood or earthquake. This can result in older bones being deposited in a new location alongside much younger organic material like charcoal and wood.

For these reasons, scientists will be very cautious about accepting indirect dates from surrounding organic matter. The best evidence is radiocarbon dates from collagen protein purified from bones. This data is lacking in the paper.

Scientists working on Kennewick Man also encountered carbonates, and yet again, Mormons have got the science wrong. This is discussed in detail in a recent paper I co-authored with Thomas Murphy and Angelo Baca. https://www.academia.edu/88679212/Scien ... 8RMFytQGZA

Kennewick Man was a paleolithic hunter who's almost fully intact skeleton was recovered from the banks of the Columbia River in Kennewick Washington. Because scientists were able to isolate high quality collagen from several of Kennewick Man’s bones, they were able to determine that he was, without a doubt, around 9,000 years old. However, some of Kennewick Man’s bones were contaminated by carbonates. In order to learn when the carbonates formed scientists measured radiocarbon dates for several bones. Not surprisingly, the dates were much younger, roughly 2,500 years ago. To this day Heartland apologists still claim the carbonate dates on Kennewick Man reflect his true age, even after the scientists corrected their false claims.

It's worth remembering that the horse species Miller et al. were studying are not the same species as the horses the Spanish brought. They are New World species. This means that Indigenous people would have needed to domesticate them. If they did domesticate them, why didn't they keep using them? Why is there no evidence of pre-Columbian use of horses among indigenous populations anywhere in the Americas?

A FAR more important piece of evidence that Mormons are still lacking is ANY evidence people from the Middle East lived ANYWHERE in the Americas prior to Columbus. Scientists have been researching the DNA of Indigenous Americans for over 40 years. The latest genomic research has revealed no evidence of Book of Mormon people anywhere. Jennifer Raff, professor of Anthropology at the University of Kansas, recently wrote about the human colonization of the Americas in Scientific American. https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... UG6wxvx4yQ

This is what she said:

“All genomic studies rule out the possibility that the First Peoples mixed with Europeans or Africans or any other populations before 1492.”

Why get excited about horses when there are no Nephites to ride them?

God bless you Simon. Thank you for not letting these deceptive Mormon claims go unchallenged.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:52 am
by Moksha
“Simon Southerton” wrote: Why get excited about horses when there are no Nephites to ride them?
Because it leads us to speculate on the breed of tapirs used to pull the steel chariots of the Nephites. My guess is the height of the tapir withers was at least 5 feet. The Interpreter Foundation might place the tapir withers height slightly higher.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:34 pm
by Marcus
Just starting to read Southerton's article:
Abstract
In June of 1997 Orson Scott Card, a popular science fiction author and prominent Latter-day Saint, seized upon the news of the erosion of an ancient skeleton out of a riverbank along
the Columbia River in eastern Washington during the previous summer.

Card prematurely suggested to a Mormon audience thatthis Kennewick Man represented an ancient founding Caucasoid population displaced by ancestors of American Indians. Indigenous
peoples called this ancestor the Ancient One and participated in along and contentious struggle between a team of scientists and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers over repatriation. Tis article criticallyexamines the deployment and evolution of images of Kennewick Manin Latter-day Saint discourse about Native Americans, DNA, and the
Book of Mormon.

Despite cautionary warnings from the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Latter-day Saint scientists, the latest pseudoscientific resurrection of a Latter-day settler colonial
narrative about ancient America appears as David Read’s Face of a Nephite (2020) featuring a racialized and creationist distortion ofthe scientific analysis and facial reconstructions of Kennewick Man.

Read’s book feeds into a larger discourse advocating a Heartland setting for the Book of Mormon in North America advocated by Rodney Meldrum’s misnamed Foundation for Indigenous Researchand Mormonism (FIRM). Tese authors anachronistically racialize both scripture and human DNA, misrepresent archaeological and genetic science, draw from fraudulent and looted materials, anddisregard Indigenous perspectives on the Ancient One, now firmly established as ancestral to American Indians.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:00 pm
by Marcus
I hope Southerton doesn't mind if i quote a little more--this was fascinating:
...Despite the early rebuke of scientists, changing approaches took hold in the LDS Church less than a decade later. The Neal A. Maxwell Institute at BYU would absorb FARMS and in 2012 dismiss Daniel Peterson from his editorial role at Mormon Studies Review (Haymond 2012).

Earlier support at BYU for divisive apologetic scholarship has declined over subsequent years, and new philosophies of respectful engagement with broader academic fields exemplified by the Maxwell Institute have tempered conflict (Hodges 2013).

Several scholars from BYU have published in and/or edited recent anthologies that forthrightly acknowledge nineteenth century content and
ideas in the Book of Mormon (Colvin and Brooks
2018; Fenton and Hickman 2019; Hafen and
Rensink 2019; MacKay et al. 2020...

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:41 am
by Moksha
https://bookofmormonevidence.org/face-of-a-nephite/

The face of Kennewick Man from Book of Mormon Evidence, November 11, 2020.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:41 am
by Philo Sofee
Moksha wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:41 am
https://bookofmormonevidence.org/face-of-a-nephite/

The face of Kennewick Man from Book of Mormon Evidence, November 11, 2020.
From the article you cite, they discuss the reconstruction of Kennewick man and say
"Kennewick Man’s Caucasian features, together with his mtDNA haplogroup X DNA, lend support to the idea that the ancient Native American population with haplogroup X DNA may have had more Caucasian features, similar to Kennewick Man. This fits a Middle Eastern ancestry such as described in the Book of Mormon and conflicts with the common assumption in the science of an East Asian ancestry for all Native Americans via the Bering Strait. This constitutes a surprising finding regarding Native American origins which fits with, and lends support to, the authenticity of the Book of Mormon."

Sheer nonsense.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:58 pm
by Moksha
Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 12:41 am
Sheer nonsense.
They are Mormons and Mormons just believe.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:02 pm
by Dr Moore
I wonder when the Mopologencia will figure out that the more they explain, they more they lose.

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:14 am
by Philo Sofee
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 2:02 pm
I wonder when the Mopologencia will figure out that the more they explain, they more they lose.
It is such a remarkable state of affairs isn't it...

Re: Simon Southerton debunks latest LDS apologetic “discovery” on horses

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:01 am
by slskipper
In order for the Book of Mormon to be accurate, besides the horses you need:

Tanners and saddlers
Blacksmiths
Iron for the blacksmiths
Iron ore to make the iron
Iron foundries
Granaries to store the horse food
Vast grain fields to grow the grain
Harvesting implements and infrastructure
Maybe even glue factories

And on and on.

Call me when you find these.