Kishkumen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:09 pm
Chap wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 1:56 pm
I'm not sure that is an unmixed compliment to Catholicism. I wonder too how far the nature of Western Europe itself did not contribute to creating Catholicism as we know it? Once there was a (Western) Roman emperor, then there was the Pope. And so on.
Oh, the Roman Empire is definitely responsible for Catholicism.
Since I may have been the one who unintentionally diverted this thread from the OP, I will see if I can retreat from this particular hill by tentatively conceding defeat before I scurry over to the other hill from which I was going to post. I, too, start from George Orwell’s premise that all saints should be considered guilty until proven innocent. Nevertheless, if I may be permitted to play Devil’s Advocate, I would ask if it’s possible that Constantine may have been to some degree “leading from behind”? In other words, politically, did he already have a good idea of where the winds were blowing and how best to unify his empire? It seems to me that there was a healthy body of believers that would have continued on regardless of who was in charge. Sure, they were bickering; but that's hardly changed in the intervening centuries and continues to this day. And then, of course, there is the matter of his dream: “By this sign, you will conquer”. Whether or not the dream was actual, prophetic, or a propaganda ploy only Constantine could say. I think, however, that it is fairly well documented that his mother was a true believer, if not a visionary.
As for dreams and speaking only for myself, a nobody, I can say that most of my interesting dreams were usually the product of too much pizza or from an excess build-up of seminal humor during those times when I was on holiday away from Gabriel’s Little Factory. That being said, I did once have one of those “seven-fat-cow-type-dreams” during the heyday of my Ayn Rand/Nietzsche years that lead me to question whether we are always the author of our own dreams or if some dreams are inspired from without. Since my “seven-fat-cow” dream had nothing to do with how best to rule my kingdom, what church is "true", or what to post on discussmorminism.com; and as I am well aware of many arguments – pro and con -- on this issue, I will refrain from sharing its contents here.
secretum meum mihi. My mother, however, a devout Mormon, did have a few prophetic dreams that were later confirmed by the event. One of them I will share here: She dreamed that a young man who was staying in our home was called to the Chicago South Mission –- “of all the gin joints in all the bars in all the world.” A few weeks later you can probably guess what he read when he received his papers. I would call it a Texas bullseye if she had at least recounted some misses along with her hits, but I’ll be damned if I can think of any. That being said, I'm at a loss to understand the purpose of having prophetic dreams regarding matters of such small import. She did have one "big" dream or vision -- but that's family business.
On the other hand, we
did have a Patriarch in our stake (in the Kent/Renton area of Western Washington) who claimed to see visions while giving his blessings. I will say his name, Patriarch Olsen, because he signed his name to the blessings and, to the best of my knowledge, they were never abrogated by the church – and this despite the fact that he was released from his calling under a cloud of parental complaints. These were primarily due to the fact of his describing, after the blessing, the physical descriptions of the future spouses of those receiving his blessings. I can personally verify this with three examples, but I will share the one that turned out to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. In the gym of our stake center, I saw the Stake President’s daughter refuse a date with one of my neighbors with whom she was good friends; this she did on the basis that he didn’t fit the physical description of “The One” according to Patriarch Olsen – and I heard that this was not the first time that she did this. I can only conjecture, but I heard rumors that our Stake President was pretty torqued at the Patriarch for this. I don’t know all the machinations involved, but it was not long after this that Patriarch Olsen was released from his calling and Stake President Mortensen became Patriarch Mortensen in short order. I suppose that the moral of the story is that if you want something done right you gotta do it yourself.
I was hoping to touch on the subject of prophecy a little more with what, I think, is the catholic answer to Brother Sim's post. In short, it is one that doesn't preclude people of all stripes and traditions, male or female -- even Mormons -- from receiving divine inspiration. But It turns out that it's going to be much longer than I thought. I have to go to work now. I will, however, endeavor to return in a day or two with a follow-up post full of my trademark gentle wit and seminal humor.
