Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

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Rivendale
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Rivendale »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:22 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:52 pm


This seems to say that he purposely creates children that will not be grafted.
that's actually biblical. There are various verses that talk about their god creating evil people in the womb, or something akin to that. For example, from Psalms:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
That is just awful.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by huckelberry »

Rivendale wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:17 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:22 pm


that's actually biblical. There are various verses that talk about their god creating evil people in the womb, or something akin to that. For example, from Psalms:

That is just awful.
Psalm 58
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"

A person might imagine that in Bible world some people upon birth are directly able to speak and create lies. Or one might imagine that an exaggeration is being made here.

The Psalm is not god explaining things it is a person complaining about the dangers of military enemies.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:20 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:17 pm


That is just awful.
Psalm 58
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"

A person might imagine that in Bible world some people upon birth are directly able to speak and create lies. Or one might imagine that an exaggeration is being made here.

The Psalm is not god explaining things it is a person complaining about the dangers of military enemies.
Are you suggesting the chief Musician, Altaschith, who served David directly didn’t understand Jewish theology and was allowed to just make up things up because it made for a good ditty? Furthermore, are you saying Psalms is heretical with regard to Jewish theology?

- Doc

eta: I should point out the Bible is very clear the “Lord” creates evil and uses evil, even evil spirits, to afflict others. It also falls squarely within Jewish theology, as described by the Bible, that the Jewish god forms man by his own hand (or something approximating the metaphor). In other words, if someone comes out of the womb as an evil of some sort, it’s because the “Lord” did it, and it’s because he has something in mind for the evildoer later on.
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by huckelberry »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:34 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:20 pm

Psalm 58
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"

A person might imagine that in Bible world some people upon birth are directly able to speak and create lies. Or one might imagine that an exaggeration is being made here.

The Psalm is not god explaining things it is a person complaining about the dangers of military enemies.
Are you suggesting the chief Musician, Altaschith, who served David directly didn’t understand Jewish theology and was allowed to just make up things up because it made for a good ditty? Furthermore, are you saying Psalms is heretical with regard to Jewish theology?

- Doc

eta: I should point out the Bible is very clear the “Lord” creates evil and uses evil, even evil spirits, to afflict others. It also falls squarely within Jewish theology, as described by the Bible, that the Jewish god forms man by his own hand (or something approximating the metaphor). In other words, if someone comes out of the womb as an evil of some sort, it’s because the “Lord” did it, and it’s because he has something in mind for the evildoer later on.
I have wondered and other people have wondered if some individuals were just bad from birth, pathologically. Why? Well people have thought perhaps God has a purpose for such. That fits standard medieval Christian thinking, most Reformation thinking. finds place elsewhere as well. I may or may not be heretical in thinking maybe, or maybe not, maybe sometimes, I do not know.

Doc what you describe as a Jewish point of view may be common view for Jews in Old Testament times. I do not think that there was a strict theology then, especially David times if perchance this Psalm goes back that far. The author may well have thoughts about God making bad people bad but the Psalm does not address or consider such a problem. What I read is that It hopes the wicked will be overcome. The Old Testament has enough variation in points of view that I doubt there was any tribunal to condemn the author if perchance he believed evil people inherited the problem or choose it as part of a long series of ancestral choices.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by malkie »

JohnW wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:58 pm
IHAQ wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
I think you have that completely wrong John. It's certainly not the doctrine/belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Here is how Oaks articulated the Church's position on winning/losing in this life:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng

How can an individual from a different religion, or no religion, achieve a place in the Latter-day Saints Celestial Kingdom?
...

An even longer story short: I fully expect many of you on this board to be up in heaven with me (hopefully I make it). This is because I know many of you are spending your life trying to become a good, decent person. In that way, we are in the same boat, despite our apparent difference of belief.
Is that because you expect to fall short of the highest level of heaven, so that you will have to consort with apostates like "us"? Or is it the case that you expect that we will repent of our apostacy and join you at the top?

Either way, it doesn't sound as if it is worth the effort of being an active, believing Mormon in this life if we are 'fixed up' or you are 'sent down' in the next. If "spending your life trying to become a good, decent person" is sufficient, then religion in general, and Mormonism in particular, doesn't seem to have a lot going for it.

Actually, If I recall correctly, just being a good, decent person only gets you to the Terrestrial Kingdom:

Image
https://wheatandtares.org/2019/10/20/is ... other-way/
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by IHAQ »

JohnW wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:58 pm
Long story short, yes, there is a path that people from different religions or no religion will take to get to heaven.
If by "heaven" you mean Celestial Kingdom, then you aren't reflecting what Church doctrine says about that.
In fact, most members understand that there will be so many people in heaven that were non-members in life that coming across someone who was a member in life will be an odd occurrence.
How do you know what "most members" understand?
Caveat: when I mention this fact to members, it isn't always obvious to them, meaning, I sometimes have to talk about numbers for them to get a handle on the fact. And this is even before accounting for children who die before the age of eight. That is a topic for another thread.
You now seem to be saying that "most members" don't understand what you're saying until after you teach them your understanding.
An even longer story short: I fully expect many of you on this board to be up in heaven with me (hopefully I make it). This is because I know many of you are spending your life trying to become a good, decent person. In that way, we are in the same boat, despite our apparent difference of belief.
You keep talking about heaven. Is that deliberate to avoid confronting the fact that the Church teaches about a hierarchy of Kingdoms, the highest level of which requires both membership in the Mormon church and a heterosexual marriage partner for you to "win" entry to it?
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by IHAQ »

malkie wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:24 am
Actually, If I recall correctly, just being a good, decent person only gets you to the Terrestrial Kingdom:

Image
https://wheatandtares.org/2019/10/20/is ... other-way/
That's an accurate reflection of the Church doctrine on this topic. People with no religion, another religion, or who reject Mormonism in this life, cannot "win" at this life if "winning" is denoted by access to the Celestial Kingdom. Mormonism teaches that gaining entry into the Celestial Kingdom is "winning" at this life. The graphic also shows that there is even a way of winning and losing within the Celestial Kingdom itself - another hierarchy of 3 differing levels.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by msnobody »

So, tell me about level 2 and 3 of the Celestial Kingdom. There is a lot about Mormonism I think I have forgotten from years ago.
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by JohnW »

malkie wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:24 am
JohnW wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:58 pm

...

An even longer story short: I fully expect many of you on this board to be up in heaven with me (hopefully I make it). This is because I know many of you are spending your life trying to become a good, decent person. In that way, we are in the same boat, despite our apparent difference of belief.
Is that because you expect to fall short of the highest level of heaven, so that you will have to consort with apostates like "us"? Or is it the case that you expect that we will repent of our apostacy and join you at the top?

Either way, it doesn't sound as if it is worth the effort of being an active, believing Mormon in this life if we are 'fixed up' or you are 'sent down' in the next. If "spending your life trying to become a good, decent person" is sufficient, then religion in general, and Mormonism in particular, doesn't seem to have a lot going for it.

Actually, If I recall correctly, just being a good, decent person only gets you to the Terrestrial Kingdom:

Image
https://wheatandtares.org/2019/10/20/is ... other-way/
I'm not sure who Leonidas DeVon Mecham is, although it looks as if he lived in Salt Lake City in 1950, so maybe he is a Latter-day Saint. The graphic certainly suggests he is a somewhat familiar with church doctrine. The difference between official church graphics and the one above is that official church graphics try to avoid describing who goes where (at least the modern ones tend to avoid these type of mistakes). The one above seems to have the final judgement all figured out. I doubt it will be that simple. The three sign posts heading to the Terrestrial Kingdom aren't very good. They certainly don't capture official church doctrine in such a way to avoid confusion. Even a couple of the signposts leading to the Celestial Kingdom are a little misleading. Not to say Leonidas is flat out wrong, I just suspect he didn't have a non-member audience from 2022 in mind when he put this graphic together.

The first official link that popped up in Google https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng talks about how people who are good and honest but did not get the chance to accept the gospel in this life will go to the Celestial Kingdom. I know that many people would argue all of you here have had your chance to accept the gospel and have rejected it. I personally disagree. As I said above, the way some of you describe the gospel to me sounds so warped that I would fully expect you to reject it. I wouldn't call this a fair chance at accepting the gospel, but who am I to judge?
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Re: Why Do Biblical Christians Think God Doesn't Inspire the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Post by malkie »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:19 pm
malkie wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:24 am

Is that because you expect to fall short of the highest level of heaven, so that you will have to consort with apostates like "us"? Or is it the case that you expect that we will repent of our apostacy and join you at the top?

Either way, it doesn't sound as if it is worth the effort of being an active, believing Mormon in this life if we are 'fixed up' or you are 'sent down' in the next. If "spending your life trying to become a good, decent person" is sufficient, then religion in general, and Mormonism in particular, doesn't seem to have a lot going for it.

Actually, If I recall correctly, just being a good, decent person only gets you to the Terrestrial Kingdom:

...

I'm not sure who Leonidas DeVon Mecham is, although it looks as if he lived in Salt Lake City in 1950, so maybe he is a Latter-day Saint. The graphic certainly suggests he is a somewhat familiar with church doctrine. The difference between official church graphics and the one above is that official church graphics try to avoid describing who goes where (at least the modern ones tend to avoid these type of mistakes). The one above seems to have the final judgement all figured out. I doubt it will be that simple. The three sign posts heading to the Terrestrial Kingdom aren't very good. They certainly don't capture official church doctrine in such a way to avoid confusion. Even a couple of the signposts leading to the Celestial Kingdom are a little misleading. Not to say Leonidas is flat out wrong, I just suspect he didn't have a non-member audience from 2022 in mind when he put this graphic together.

The first official link that popped up in Google https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng talks about how people who are good and honest but did not get the chance to accept the gospel in this life will go to the Celestial Kingdom. I know that many people would argue all of you here have had your chance to accept the gospel and have rejected it. I personally disagree. As I said above, the way some of you describe the gospel to me sounds so warped that I would fully expect you to reject it. I wouldn't call this a fair chance at accepting the gospel, but who am I to judge?
OK - perhaps the graphic is not the best - so I've removed it from this reply.

OTOH, I really don't know what would "capture official church doctrine in such a way to avoid confusion". But it seems to me that your disagreement about the likely disposition of apostates like many of us here is not based on the scriptures you implicitly refer to from the official link you give.

For example, I believe that many of us would closely fit the description of some who would be expected to be sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom:
D&C 76:75&79 wrote:75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; ...
Some of us have even been told, fairly clearly, by our leaders that this is who we are. So, not intending to be snarky - apologies if it seems that I am - I agree with you that you might well question who you are to judge and to disagree.

In any case, my own "rejection of the gospel" - actually, rejection of the church - is more to do with how I see the church and its leaders treating members and non-members (particularly LGBTQ+ people); how uninspired and arrogant these leaders seem to be; how they seem to be much more interested in money and land acquisition than anything else.
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