New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

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Philo Sofee
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Re: New Series Podcasts: Elohim & Jehovah in Mormonism

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:34 pm
The 7th podcast is spot on, a grand slam. It deserves a second listen as an excellent theological discourse. It is required listening. Bravo!

The name Elohim came first in biblical use to represent the Hebrew God. The name Jehovah came later through Moses the Levite who reestablished a strict Hebrew religion under the shadow of Jethro. The divine personage of Elohim & Jehovah are ONE IN THE SAME, the very "Lord God Almighty." Christianity of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon recognize the monotheistic ONE GOD as a Trinitarian expression of that God. The 1832 First Vision account is entirely Trinitarian in nature whereby Smith described seeing one person and one person only.
Thank you. That means a lot to me. It makes it worth all the effort when folks can get something out of them. And I try to make sure there is always interesting ideas in my podcast.
Marcus
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Re: New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

Post by Marcus »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:27 pm
[
Philo,

Hear my words:

The concept of *infinity* with reference to Smith's penis bearing Man-God is impossible and is contradicted by his other teachings that Heavenly Father was once a mortal man who obtained exaltation under the ordaining hands of his own Father. How is that not an unchangeable God? The Book of Mormon declares "God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Infinity cannot be experienced between peoples. Space and time cannot contain the infinite! Infinity is outside space and time! I don't believe the infinite can be counted, numbered, or known -- it is magical at base and is within the realm where potentiality is manifested via Big Bangs which hosts universes in a realm of time and space. The Mormon Man-God who totes a penis cannot be infinite and is representative of a finite being that is counted and known. *That* is not infinity!

Joseph Smith was dead wrong! Period. End of story.
Hi Shulem!

Loving your comments, as usual!

I have just a minor point re the phrase i bolded-- so no one tries to mire you down in math terminology when you are making your points! some infinite sets are "countable" in the sense that you could, in theory, assign each element in the set a number:

Any set which can be put in a one-to-one correspondence with the natural numbers (or integers) so that a prescription can be given for identifying its members one at a time is called a countably infinite (or denumerably infinite) set. Once one countable set S is given, any other set which can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with S is also countable. Countably infinite sets have cardinal number aleph-0.
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/CountablyInfinite.html
You could think of it like this- someone could START counting the god-penises or planets, they would just never finish!

So you are correct to argue that god doesn't "know" each planet in the infinite set of planets, how could he? He hasn't even finished counting them all!!!!!
Philo Sofee
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Re: Jehovah as the Father

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:51 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:47 am
06 podcasts

Philo,

Early in the podcast you stated that with the interchangeability of the roles of the Father and the Son in the earliest Mormon theology it is impossible to specifically identify the identity of Joseph Smith's first few Jehovah references as either the Father or the Son. Recall how during the dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland Temple (D&C 109), Smith calls upon God with a triple shot: (1)"Holy Father", (2)"Jehovah", and (3)"Lord God Almighty" and how the saints are to go out of the temple and bear witness of his name which theologically speaking could be none other than the name of the personage of Jesus Christ which is the only name under heaven by which mankind may be saved.

Interestingly, in the very next section (110), the Lord appears in the temple and the very "voice of Jehovah" identifies himself as Jesus when he says "I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father."

Sooooo, we do have a reference when Jehovah does step up to the plate and says he's Jesus.
Ooooooo, I just LOVE yer sharp eye Shulem. I shall have to take a look.
Marcus
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Re: New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

Post by Marcus »

Oops. A duplicate of one of my countably infinite posts!!! :D
Last edited by Marcus on Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Philo Sofee
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Re: New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

Post by Philo Sofee »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:49 pm
Shulem wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:27 pm
[
Philo,

Hear my words:

The concept of *infinity* with reference to Smith's penis bearing Man-God is impossible and is contradicted by his other teachings that Heavenly Father was once a mortal man who obtained exaltation under the ordaining hands of his own Father. How is that not an unchangeable God? The Book of Mormon declares "God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Infinity cannot be experienced between peoples. Space and time cannot contain the infinite! Infinity is outside space and time! I don't believe the infinite can be counted, numbered, or known -- it is magical at base and is within the realm where potentiality is manifested via Big Bangs which hosts universes in a realm of time and space. The Mormon Man-God who totes a penis cannot be infinite and is representative of a finite being that is counted and known. *That* is not infinity!

Joseph Smith was dead wrong! Period. End of story.
Hi Shulem!

Loving your comments, as usual!

I have just a minor point re the phrase i bolded-- so no one tries to mire you down in math terminology when you are making your points! some infinite sets are "countable" in the sense that you could, in theory, assign each element in the set a number:

Any set which can be put in a one-to-one correspondence with the natural numbers (or integers) so that a prescription can be given for identifying its members one at a time is called a countably infinite (or denumerably infinite) set. Once one countable set S is given, any other set which can be put into a one-to-one correspondence with S is also countable. Countably infinite sets have cardinal number aleph-0.
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/CountablyInfinite.html
You could think of it like this- someone could START counting the god-penises or planets, they would just never finish!

So you are correct to argue that god doesn't "know" each planet in the infinite set of planets, how could he? He hasn't even finished counting them all!!!!!
Excellent points Marcus! This is exactly the problem with putting infinity and God together. I have more information I will bring out on that from Lindsey as I have time. Appreciate you chiming in!
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Shulem
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Re: New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:49 pm
Any set which can be put in a one-to-one correspondence with the natural numbers (or integers)
You could think of it like this- someone could START counting the god-penises or planets, they would just never finish!

So you are correct to argue that god doesn't "know" each planet in the infinite set of planets, how could he? He hasn't even finished counting them all!!!!!

:D

Right. They would never finish counting the infinite but would go on and on forever and ever and never stop counting. There is always something else or another number bigger or different than the ones that have been discovered.

The difference between the infinite and the finite is the infinite consists of things that have not been manifest or made known. Everything in the finite is manifest and known in one degree or another.

That's how I see it.
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Re: New Series Podcasts: Elohim & Jehovah in Mormonism

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:49 pm
Thank you. That means a lot to me. It makes it worth all the effort when folks can get something out of them. And I try to make sure there is always interesting ideas in my podcast.

You're welcome, indeed.

And, I am looking forward to when/how you introduce and tie in the discovery Smith made about the plurality of the Gods by translating the papyrus that was in his house. The fact that Smith made that statement and it's properly and exactly recorded by two scribes makes it all the more sure that we got a true confession from the prophet even though at the time he didn't realize it was an admission that his published First Vision account was a lie! The 1832 account was locked up in his desk office! But the scribes caught Joe in real-time and it was truly a remarkable catch. Smith was brilliant but he did make mistakes from time to time. And, I think I've uncovered it quite brilliantly and you get to broadcast it to the world for the first time.

You're making history. No! WE are making history.
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Shulem
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Re: New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:50 pm
Oops. A duplicate of one of my countably infinite posts!!! :D

The infinite *IS* the imagination of Mother God who exists outside of time and space as intelligence we cannot approach or know. She just is. It's a magical static realm having no motion whatsoever for there is no space to move into!!! There is no time in-between anything within the infinite!!! And there is no real number other than the whole in the hole which is one and all. It's uncountable, unmeasurable, and unknown. Therein is no logic. It's all magic! Science and logic have nothing to do with the infinite. Science and logic are simply tools used in space time. Outside of space time there is complete magic just like when you dream at night.

:o
Philo Sofee
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Re: New Series Podcasts: Elohim & Jehovah in Mormonism

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:29 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:49 pm
Thank you. That means a lot to me. It makes it worth all the effort when folks can get something out of them. And I try to make sure there is always interesting ideas in my podcast.

You're welcome, indeed.

And, I am looking forward to when/how you introduce and tie in the discovery Smith made about the plurality of the Gods by translating the papyrus that was in his house. The fact that Smith made that statement and it's properly and exactly recorded by two scribes makes it all the more sure that we got a true confession from the prophet even though at the time he didn't realize it was an admission that his published First Vision account was a lie! The 1832 account was locked up in his desk office! But the scribes caught Joe in real-time and it was truly a remarkable catch. Smith was brilliant but he did make mistakes from time to time. And, I think I've uncovered it quite brilliantly and you get to broadcast it to the world for the first time.

You're making history. No! WE are making history.
I am furiously working on the slides. They are going to be the bomb baby!!! I think I can finish up so I can present in about a week or so. THIS ONE is going to fantastic with VISUALS... I'm just sayin......
Philo Sofee
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Re: New Podcasts on the Weird and Incoherent Mormon God(s)

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:16 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:50 pm
Oops. A duplicate of one of my countably infinite posts!!! :D

The infinite *IS* the imagination of Mother God who exists outside of time and space as intelligence we cannot approach or know. She just is. It's a magical static realm having no motion whatsoever for there is no space to move into!!! There is no time in-between anything within the infinite!!! And there is no real number other than the whole in the hole which is one and all. It's uncountable, unmeasurable, and unknown. Therein is no logic. It's all magic! Science and logic have nothing to do with the infinite. Science and logic are simply tools used in space time. Outside of space time there is complete magic just like when you dream at night.

:o
Heh..... yer sounding a lot what I think....we're weird pal..... :D
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