First Presidency Statement Opposing Any Efforts To Give Legal Authorization To Same Sex Marriages

[JohnW]

I find that God rarely just tells us stuff, he teaches us stuff. Whether individually or as a community, teaching involves putting things into practice, making mistakes, and us growing over time.

God immediately told the Israelites not worship other gods and to keep the Sabbath Day holy, as you know the punishment for breaking the commandments was death.

Yes, God immediately told the Israelites to not worship other gods and to keep the Sabbath Day holy, but one could argue it took 40 years for them to actually learn the lesson. Either way, I agree that sometimes God is very direct and simply tells people what to do. I just believe that to be relatively rare, at least from my personal experience.

[doubtingthomas]

Either way, I agree that sometimes God is very direct and simply tells people what to do.

Yes, like when God told Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage for example.

God immediately told the Israelites to not worship other gods and to keep the Sabbath Day holy, but one could argue it took 40 years for them to actually learn the lesson

Why would observing the Sabbath day be more important than ending slavery?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I find that God rarely just tells us stuff, he teaches us stuff. Whether individually or as a community, teaching involves putting things into practice, making mistakes, and us growing over time.

God immediately told the Israelites not worship other gods …

No.

- Doc

[IHAQ]

Some might say, "Why didn't God just make church leaders understand all this in advance?" I don't know the answer to this. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the last 20 years is God helping us, as members of the church, understand this issue. I find that God rarely just tells us stuff, he teaches us stuff. Whether individually or as a community, teaching involves putting things into practice, making mistakes, and us growing over time. That certainly looks like the last 20 years on this topic to me.

This particular "mistake" or "growth experience" has cost young people their lives. It's broken families. It's created schisms. It's divided friends and neighbours. It's cost members money they can ill afford to have dumped into a community learning experience. Did I mention it's cost young people their lives? Your glib portrayal that this just a bit of a learning experience suggests you don't have an adequate grasp of the pain and suffering caused by your Church.

And where does it leave us in considering the level of divine guidance under which Church leaders operate? We've got Oaks still making unequivocal statements at General Conference about the Lord requiring His Church and His Saints to actively fight against the legal recognition of same sex marriage and then, six months later, the Church supports (well, chooses not to fight it providing religious exemptions are included in it) a bill that brings recognition of same sex marriage. What's the learning here?

[cwald]

At risk of speculating a bit here:

Some might say, "Why didn't God just make church leaders understand all this in advance?" I don't know the answer to this. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the last 20 years is God helping us, as members of the church, understand this issue. I find that God rarely just tells us stuff, he teaches us stuff. Whether individually or as a community, teaching involves putting things into practice, making mistakes, and us growing over time. That certainly looks like the last 20 years on this topic to me.

Yeah, leaders and members of the church have been using this lame excuse since Polygamy times to justify the prophets' screw-ups for, well, since it began. This is a perfect example of why members can't trust the inspiration of church leaders and why the Mormon god sucks. He could just tell the prophets what is what, but he chooses not to...and the people suffer and die because of it.

[JohnW]

Some might say, "Why didn't God just make church leaders understand all this in advance?" I don't know the answer to this. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the last 20 years is God helping us, as members of the church, understand this issue. I find that God rarely just tells us stuff, he teaches us stuff. Whether individually or as a community, teaching involves putting things into practice, making mistakes, and us growing over time. That certainly looks like the last 20 years on this topic to me.

This particular "mistake" or "growth experience" has cost young people their lives. It's broken families. It's created schisms. It's divided friends and neighbours. It's cost members money they can ill afford to have dumped into a community learning experience. Did I mention it's cost young people their lives? Your glib portrayal that this just a bit of a learning experience suggests you don't have an adequate grasp of the pain and suffering caused by your Church.

Yes, I would agree that I don't fully understand the pain and suffering the LGBT community has gone through, because I'm not a member of that community. I don't think anyone fully understands unless they are a member of that community. All we can do is the best we can do. I would love it if I never made any mistakes. I would love it if the church never made any mistakes. It would be awesome if we could learn everything there is to learn without any mistakes or anyone ever getting hurt. Unfortunately that just isn't how it works. Learning doesn't happen without pain. Community isn't built without stepping on each other's toes. Trust is not trust without opening ourselves up to possible injury. Our job is to find out the way to lessen that pain and suffering as much as we can.

[JohnW]

At risk of speculating a bit here:

Some might say, "Why didn't God just make church leaders understand all this in advance?" I don't know the answer to this. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the last 20 years is God helping us, as members of the church, understand this issue. I find that God rarely just tells us stuff, he teaches us stuff. Whether individually or as a community, teaching involves putting things into practice, making mistakes, and us growing over time. That certainly looks like the last 20 years on this topic to me.

Yeah, leaders and members of the church have been using this lame excuse since Polygamy times to justify the prophets' screw-ups for, well, since it began. This is a perfect example of why members can't trust the inspiration of church leaders and why the Mormon god sucks. He could just tell the prophets what is what, but he chooses not to...and the people suffer and die because of it.

I wouldn't call it a lame excuse; I would call it the general state of life. I used to be a tutor in college. Lesson one was don't just tell the students the answer. You are hurting them in the long run when you do that. Let them struggle through the answer and they learn the material better. I understand how it can be frustrating, but I'm not sure what sort of situation you would expect otherwise. Yes, peoples's lives are at stake. I believe lives are at stake far more often than we realize. Lives could very well be at stake with what you and I say and do here in this board. What the leaders of the church say and do isn't too different, except in the number of people they affect.

[IHAQ]

This particular "mistake" or "growth experience" has cost young people their lives. It's broken families. It's created schisms. It's divided friends and neighbours. It's cost members money they can ill afford to have dumped into a community learning experience. Did I mention it's cost young people their lives? Your glib portrayal that this just a bit of a learning experience suggests you don't have an adequate grasp of the pain and suffering caused by your Church.

Yes, I would agree that I don't fully understand the pain and suffering the LGBT community has gone through, because I'm not a member of that community. I don't think anyone fully understands unless they are a member of that community. All we can do is the best we can do. I would love it if I never made any mistakes. I would love it if the church never made any mistakes. It would be awesome if we could learn everything there is to learn without any mistakes or anyone ever getting hurt. Unfortunately that just isn't how it works. Learning doesn't happen without pain. Community isn't built without stepping on each other's toes. Trust is not trust without opening ourselves up to possible injury. Our job is to find out the way to lessen that pain and suffering as much as we can.

You're saying that, in order for Church Leaders to learn they have to make mistakes that cause pain and suffering for others. In this specific case, your God needed gay people to suffer mental abuse and be victimised by Church Leaders in order for those same Church Leaders to realise that perhaps there was a more subtle way of protecting their religious boundaries? Is that really how your God works - punishing others for your mistakes so that special and precious little you can learn something that's obvious to most right-minded people? I can't believe that's what you are saying. Perhaps you've worded it badly or I've misunderstood what you've written.

Maybe the lesson to be learned here is that your Church Leaders are simply uninspired bigoted men trying to hold on to their misogynistic patriarchy. That certainly fits the evidence. I don't see any indication of divine involvement in the behaviour and actions of Church Leaders in regards to LGBTQ topics over the last 40 years. Perhaps you do and can point to some evidence where the Church has led the way on equality?

[JohnW]

Yes, I would agree that I don't fully understand the pain and suffering the LGBT community has gone through, because I'm not a member of that community. I don't think anyone fully understands unless they are a member of that community. All we can do is the best we can do. I would love it if I never made any mistakes. I would love it if the church never made any mistakes. It would be awesome if we could learn everything there is to learn without any mistakes or anyone ever getting hurt. Unfortunately that just isn't how it works. Learning doesn't happen without pain. Community isn't built without stepping on each other's toes. Trust is not trust without opening ourselves up to possible injury. Our job is to find out the way to lessen that pain and suffering as much as we can.

You're saying that, in order for Church Leaders to learn they have to make mistakes that cause pain and suffering for others. In this specific case, your God needed gay people to suffer mental abuse and be victimised by Church Leaders in order for those same Church Leaders to realise that perhaps there was a more subtle way of protecting their religious boundaries? Is that really how your God works - punishing others for your mistakes so that special and precious little you can learn something that's obvious to most right-minded people? I can't believe that's what you are saying. Perhaps you've worded it badly or I've misunderstood what you've written.

Maybe the lesson to be learned here is that your Church Leaders are simply uninspired bigoted men trying to hold on to their misogynistic patriarchy. That certainly fits the evidence. I don't see any indication of divine involvement in the behaviour and actions of Church Leaders in regards to LGBTQ topics over the last 40 years. Perhaps you do and can point to some evidence where the Church has led the way on equality?

This discussion probably isn't going to work IHAQ. What you are describing is a caricature of church leaders. Overall, I'm talking more about how we as members learn how to include others in a loving way and the LGBT community learning how to find a place in the church. That doesn't happen without people stepping on each other's toes. Yes, church leaders are involved in that process, but certainly not the only ones learning here. My experience appears to be the opposite of yours. Either you are intentionally trying to mischaracterize the situation, which I don't think is the case, or our experiences with church leaders are just too different to have a meaningful conversation.

[IHAQ]

What you are describing is a caricature of church leaders.

I'm referencing a number of things General Authorities have actually done and said over the years. Including the deliberate covert weaponising of members during Prop 8. Including talks about people "choosing" to be gay. Including policies being introduced that placed same sex attraction as liable for the same Church discipline as murderers and child sex offenders. Including advocating electro-shock therapy to cure "gayness". That's not me making a caricature, that's a list of actions that General Authorities have actually done.

Overall, I'm talking more about how we as members learn how to include others in a loving way and the LGBT community learning how to find a place in the church. That doesn't happen without people stepping on each other's toes. Yes, church leaders are involved in that process, but certainly not the only ones learning here.

In what way(s) do members set the tone, the agenda, the policy, the language, the programmes necessary to change the institutional church into something that can be classed as a welcoming environment for the LGBQT community? Members have been excommunicated for asking awkward questions, General Authorities have articulated that activism is evil when it's directed at changing the church. Members have been told not to write to the General Authorities, they're too busy. Talks have been given that make it plain that criticism of church leaders, even if that criticism is warranted, is apostasy. Again, that's not me making up a caricature, those are actual, real, examples.

My experience appears to be the opposite of yours. Either you are intentionally trying to mischaracterize the situation, which I don't think is the case, or our experiences with church leaders are just too different to have a meaningful conversation.

I completely agree. I've cited numerous real world examples of why and how General Authorities have been the driving force behind making the church a toxic environment for the LGBQT community. Even the most recent so-called endorsement of the marriage equality bill is not an an example of the church finding a way of including the LGBQT community in the church environment - they have made sure to protect the church's right to be exclusionary and discriminatory of the LGBQT community. Feel free to cite the examples I've missed where they, the General Authorities have driven inclusion.

From the quote from 1994 in the OP

We encourage members to appeal to legislators, judges, and other government officials to preserve the purposes and sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, and to reject all efforts to give legal authorization or other official approval or support to marriages between persons of the same gender.

From General Conference April 2022

...the Lord has required His restored Church to oppose social and legal pressures to retreat from His doctrine of marriage between a man and a woman, to oppose changes that homogenize the differences between men and women or confuse or alter gender.

That's a member of the First Presidency speaking officially at General Conference to the membership of the Church. How can that be considered an effort at inclusion?