dastardly stem wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:38 pm
So as far as I can tell "gathering" is not apologetics because ii doesn't presume a rational basis for discussion. At least that's what I gather in attempted conversations with Wade. If so, i too applaud such a perspective. There is no rational convincing of faith. It is anti-intellectual and must best work from that perspective. There is no rational argument for God or a spirit world. one must presuppose such things. And if one is questioning those very things, there is no progress to make rationally speaking. Any sense of being reasonable only fits subjectively...once one assumes reason only fits within a spirit realm. Or something of that sort.
I'd say such a perspective absolutely disrespect's human reason and all that has come from human effort to be reasonable. But if God truly is most important to someone, then that appears to be exactly what God wants. Jesus, as they say, didn't come to bring peace but a sword. God's understanding far exceeds man's. And, of course, we as humans can't possibly understand God's ways, for they aren't our ways....and all of that. Pretending that a believer can cross the chasm and provide reason for their beliefs is an enormous waste of time...except human's often aren't rational characters. So unreason often convinces us. But then that might just take us into the lying for the Lord arena.
Ah well...I see the freshness of Wade's move here. It's understandable...particularly if the fruits of apologetics continues to be completely void o producing anything.
You almost got it. There is, in fact, a lack of rational basis for discussion. However, it isn't because there is no rational basis for "gathering." Rather, it is because, between gatherers and critics, there is little to no overlap in acceptable evidence, methods of testing, purposes, etc.. And, absent sufficient overlap, then rational discussions aren't viable. There is no rational basis for non-viable discussions. Quite the contrary.
This isn't for lack of respect for "human reason" or the kind of evidence, methods, purposes, etc. used by the critics. Indeed, many gatherers have flourished in secular academics and various occupations: doctors, lawyers, pilots, linguist, teachers, scientist, economist, philosophers, etc. They could not flourish in these fields except they were to respect and even firmly believe in such evidence, methods, purposes, etc.
And, while these gatherers may draw from their secular professions to illuminate principles and practices in their religious gathering endeavors (Elder Uchtdorf often employees airline metaphors in his conference talks), they don't use their secular methods in bringing people to Christ. Gatherers who are cardiologist, don't perform open heart surgery in order to affect a change from a carnal and sensual and devilish heart to a spiritual heart.
Thanks, Wade Englund