God is a monster

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dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

God is a monster

Post by dastardly stem »

It keeps happening.

If we imagine human perspective looking at a vast sea of open space, largely unseeable from the naked eye, lighted partially as we implement our provisional tools of knowledge, there remains vast darkness too far for us to reach. As we continue our investigative journey we may light more space, helping us see a little further with a little more clarity, bit by bit. But as we've learned that lighted space remains the allotment of provisional knowledge' "provisional" because as we press deeper into the abyss we learn the assumptions inherent in our lighted spaces, often, perhaps, were hasty or incomplete, leaving dark corners or crevices in the regions already explored. We assumed too much and moved to quickly, perhaps. In David Deutsch's book The Beginning of Infinity he imagines the darkness to go on forever in every direction, and our quest for knowledge will go on for as long as we exist.

This seems to be a fairly good metaphor for us to consider. Centuries ago, our lighted space was very small compared to today. God, it was thought, was hidden in the darkness. As we bravely went exploring, God was not found. Each time we ventured into darkness and found light, religion countered saying, "God is really in the dark spaces yet to be explored". When that darkness was lighted, there was no God. When dark crevices or dark corners were re-examined and those got lighted, no God was found. Yet, religion persists--"God is there, hidden in those more mysterious dark spaces. It might seem we were lying and were wrong before, but trust us. He's hidden over there." And the cycle repeats, over and over. I suppose this game will be played for eternity.

Maybe someday as it comes along, we'll light up a corner and there will be God, hiding, giggling like the 5 year old declaring himself the winner of a cosmic game of hide n seek. If that day comes, perhaps then we can say something of this God, including staking a claim that He exists. For now, that's just not our situation. It seems to me we ought to be honest with ourselves and stop pretending a divine, a better world, a hope for salvation and subsequently a hope for destruction for others...We ought to be rational people, joining each other on the move into darkness, ready to accept whatever we find. It seems silly to join religion or theism, as it were, when they, as the majority, fight to keep the dark spaces dark, hoping to maintain the myth that they are right. All so they can find bliss in the destruction of the many others. That terrible hope of religion only sounds good to those who love it. To others, it sheer destruction and pain.

Religion continues to exist by pointing to the dark spots, as far as we can imagine dark spaces to be and saying, "See....I told you so." What an empty methodology.

If God is hidden, and provokes us; if God continues to move deeper into the abyss to get away from us, then He sucks. If He's not there, then the whole idea of Him is a human conjured myth---a mythic monster--a magical something out there waiting to inflict pain on something.

I suppose in our venturing if we never find God, we might be subject to his wrath for not believing. I say, so be it. What a weenie who would penalize the ignorant whom he intentionally keeps in ignorance. But if God is good, I'd think He'd value honesty. He'd value those who joined together to seek light. Live for each other. If there's a God, he'll understand that. If he can't. It was never worth thinking of him anyway.

--Inspired by recent conversations on this forum.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by huckelberry »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:46 pm
What a weenie who would penalize the ignorant whom he intentionally keeps in ignorance. But if God is good, I'd think He'd value honesty. He'd value those who joined together to seek light. Live for each other. If there's a God, he'll understand that. If he can't. It was never worth thinking of him anyway.

--Inspired by recent conversations on this forum.
Stem, I think this statement is completely correct.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: God is monster

Post by drumdude »

From a Mormon perspective, you’re better off never encountering Mormonism. At least then you’re given a pass and allowed to be taught the truth in Spirit Prison. Where you’re aware there is life after death.

ExMormons who have known the fullness of the gospel and rejected it, are the only ones eligible for Outer Darkness.

So every Mormon missionary you see who has baptized someone is placing that person in extreme spiritual danger. What kind of God would set up such a ridiculous system?
Alphus and Omegus
Area Authority
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:45 pm
From a Mormon perspective, you’re better off never encountering Mormonism. At least then you’re given a pass and allowed to be taught the truth in Spirit Prison. Where you’re aware there is life after death.

ExMormons who have known the fullness of the gospel and rejected it, are the only ones eligible for Outer Darkness.

So every Mormon missionary you see who has baptized someone is placing that person in extreme spiritual danger. What kind of God would set up such a ridiculous system?
Similarly, it would be better for someone to be born and then die before age 8, so therefore someone who kills children is helping them. It's a sick system that flows from its shallow moral assumptions.
Alphus and Omegus
Area Authority
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 8:41 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:46 pm
It keeps happening.

If we imagine human perspective looking at a vast sea of open space, largely unseeable from the naked eye, lighted partially as we implement our provisional tools of knowledge, there remains vast darkness too far for us to reach. As we continue our investigative journey we may light more space, helping us see a little further with a little more clarity, bit by bit. But as we've learned that lighted space remains the allotment of provisional knowledge' "provisional" because as we press deeper into the abyss we learn the assumptions inherent in our lighted spaces, often, perhaps, were hasty or incomplete, leaving dark corners or crevices in the regions already explored. We assumed too much and moved to quickly, perhaps. In David Deutsch's book The Beginning of Infinity he imagines the darkness to go on forever in every direction, and our quest for knowledge will go on for as long as we exist.

This seems to be a fairly good metaphor for us to consider. Centuries ago, our lighted space was very small compared to today. God, it was thought, was hidden in the darkness. As we bravely went exploring, God was not found. Each time we ventured into darkness and found light, religion countered saying, "God is really in the dark spaces yet to be explored". When that darkness was lighted, there was no God. When dark crevices or dark corners were re-examined and those got lighted, no God was found. Yet, religion persists--"God is there, hidden in those more mysterious dark spaces. It might seem we were lying and were wrong before, but trust us. He's hidden over there." And the cycle repeats, over and over. I suppose this game will be played for eternity.

Maybe someday as it comes along, we'll light up a corner and there will be God, hiding, giggling like the 5 year old declaring himself the winner of a cosmic game of hide n seek. If that day comes, perhaps then we can say something of this God, including staking a claim that He exists. For now, that's just not our situation. It seems to me we ought to be honest with ourselves and stop pretending a divine, a better world, a hope for salvation and subsequently a hope for destruction for others...We ought to be rational people, joining each other on the move into darkness, ready to accept whatever we find. It seems silly to join religion or theism, as it were, when they, as the majority, fight to keep the dark spaces dark, hoping to maintain the myth that they are right. All so they can find bliss in the destruction of the many others. That terrible hope of religion only sounds good to those who love it. To others, it sheer destruction and pain.

Religion continues to exist by pointing to the dark spots, as far as we can imagine dark spaces to be and saying, "See....I told you so." What an empty methodology.

If God is hidden, and provokes us; if God continues to move deeper into the abyss to get away from us, then He sucks. If He's not there, then the whole idea of Him is a human conjured myth---a mythic monster--a magical something out there waiting to inflict pain on something.

I suppose in our venturing if we never find God, we might be subject to his wrath for not believing. I say, so be it. What a weenie who would penalize the ignorant whom he intentionally keeps in ignorance. But if God is good, I'd think He'd value honesty. He'd value those who joined together to seek light. Live for each other. If there's a God, he'll understand that. If he can't. It was never worth thinking of him anyway.

--Inspired by recent conversations on this forum.
Great post. Religion is arrogant ignorance that markets itself as humility. The true humility is to admit that we do not know and may never know what is out there or why things exist. To accept that is to embrace the full measure of one's mortality, which can then lead to embracing one's full humanity. We are all we have and for that reason, we ought to take better care of the planet and each other.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:45 pm
From a Mormon perspective, you’re better off never encountering Mormonism. At least then you’re given a pass and allowed to be taught the truth in Spirit Prison. Where you’re aware there is life after death.

ExMormons who have known the fullness of the gospel and rejected it, are the only ones eligible for Outer Darkness.

So every Mormon missionary you see who has baptized someone is placing that person in extreme spiritual danger. What kind of God would set up such a ridiculous system?
I suppose there are different colors or Mormonism but the one I grew up in understood ," know the fullness of the gospel" in this context to mean completely and genuinely know it true understanding its meaning not just have testimony feelings sometime. In other words you hardly qualify,not even close.
msnobody
First Presidency
Posts: 834
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:35 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by msnobody »

Do you want to find him, DS?
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2579
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by huckelberry »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:15 pm
drumdude wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:45 pm
From a Mormon perspective, you’re better off never encountering Mormonism. At least then you’re given a pass and allowed to be taught the truth in Spirit Prison. Where you’re aware there is life after death.

ExMormons who have known the fullness of the gospel and rejected it, are the only ones eligible for Outer Darkness.

So every Mormon missionary you see who has baptized someone is placing that person in extreme spiritual danger. What kind of God would set up such a ridiculous system?
I suppose there are different colors or Mormonism but the one I grew up in understood ," know the fullness of the gospel" in this context to mean completely and genuinely know it true understanding its meaning not just have testimony feelings sometime. In other words you hardly qualify,not even close.
Ok, I am actually curious, has this changed so that the proposal is now that exmormons are all headed to outher darkness? If that is being taught, I am shocked, I do not have real positive views about Mormon manipulation of fear but that would be malignant and cultish beyond my expectations.
Philo Sofee
God
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Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: God is a monster

Post by Philo Sofee »

Alphus & Omegus
Religion is arrogant ignorance that markets itself as humility.
Fallacy of Generalization. I think what you mean is there are peoples in religion who do this. Religion itself isn't this way at all when done correctly.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: God is monster

Post by dastardly stem »

Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:00 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:46 pm
It keeps happening.

If we imagine human perspective looking at a vast sea of open space, largely unseeable from the naked eye, lighted partially as we implement our provisional tools of knowledge, there remains vast darkness too far for us to reach. As we continue our investigative journey we may light more space, helping us see a little further with a little more clarity, bit by bit. But as we've learned that lighted space remains the allotment of provisional knowledge' "provisional" because as we press deeper into the abyss we learn the assumptions inherent in our lighted spaces, often, perhaps, were hasty or incomplete, leaving dark corners or crevices in the regions already explored. We assumed too much and moved to quickly, perhaps. In David Deutsch's book The Beginning of Infinity he imagines the darkness to go on forever in every direction, and our quest for knowledge will go on for as long as we exist.

This seems to be a fairly good metaphor for us to consider. Centuries ago, our lighted space was very small compared to today. God, it was thought, was hidden in the darkness. As we bravely went exploring, God was not found. Each time we ventured into darkness and found light, religion countered saying, "God is really in the dark spaces yet to be explored". When that darkness was lighted, there was no God. When dark crevices or dark corners were re-examined and those got lighted, no God was found. Yet, religion persists--"God is there, hidden in those more mysterious dark spaces. It might seem we were lying and were wrong before, but trust us. He's hidden over there." And the cycle repeats, over and over. I suppose this game will be played for eternity.

Maybe someday as it comes along, we'll light up a corner and there will be God, hiding, giggling like the 5 year old declaring himself the winner of a cosmic game of hide n seek. If that day comes, perhaps then we can say something of this God, including staking a claim that He exists. For now, that's just not our situation. It seems to me we ought to be honest with ourselves and stop pretending a divine, a better world, a hope for salvation and subsequently a hope for destruction for others...We ought to be rational people, joining each other on the move into darkness, ready to accept whatever we find. It seems silly to join religion or theism, as it were, when they, as the majority, fight to keep the dark spaces dark, hoping to maintain the myth that they are right. All so they can find bliss in the destruction of the many others. That terrible hope of religion only sounds good to those who love it. To others, it sheer destruction and pain.

Religion continues to exist by pointing to the dark spots, as far as we can imagine dark spaces to be and saying, "See....I told you so." What an empty methodology.

If God is hidden, and provokes us; if God continues to move deeper into the abyss to get away from us, then He sucks. If He's not there, then the whole idea of Him is a human conjured myth---a mythic monster--a magical something out there waiting to inflict pain on something.

I suppose in our venturing if we never find God, we might be subject to his wrath for not believing. I say, so be it. What a weenie who would penalize the ignorant whom he intentionally keeps in ignorance. But if God is good, I'd think He'd value honesty. He'd value those who joined together to seek light. Live for each other. If there's a God, he'll understand that. If he can't. It was never worth thinking of him anyway.

--Inspired by recent conversations on this forum.
Great post. Religion is arrogant ignorance that markets itself as humility. The true humility is to admit that we do not know and may never know what is out there or why things exist. To accept that is to embrace the full measure of one's mortality, which can then lead to embracing one's full humanity. We are all we have and for that reason, we ought to take better care of the planet and each other.
That's definitely my preferred way of seeing it. Let the truth prevail.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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