DiscussMormonism.com

msnobody wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:12 am

Do you want to find him, DS?

Yes. If he's there, I hope we find him someday. until then all the guesswork, and dogma, and make believe should be set aside, I figure.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Alphus & Omegus
Religion is arrogant ignorance that markets itself as humility.

Fallacy of Generalization. I think what you mean is there are peoples in religion who do this. Religion itself isn't this way at all when done correctly.

Where is it done correctly? Religious moderation provides cover for fundamentalists. When done correctly, it seems to only make things worse in the big picture. Could be wrong of course, so what you got?

My family and friends that continue to attend and participate in the church almost always appear to be confused when I explain to them that I am fully comfortable in my reasons removing my family from the church. If/when the time comes to address those reasons, I believe a truly understanding heavenly Father/parent will listen and acknowledge those reasons. If they can't don't, I will accept wherever I end up because I don't think I would want to spend eternity in the presence of the God.

Some say that my take is rather arrogant, that I think I know more than God or the leaders of the Church. I say I just try and treat everyone around me as best I can with concern and respect, something I find difficult to do within the church.

master_dc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:04 pm

My family and friends that continue to attend and participate in the church almost always appear to be confused when I explain to them that I am fully comfortable in my reasons removing my family from the church. If/when the time comes to address those reasons, I believe a truly understanding heavenly Father/parent will listen and acknowledge those reasons. If they can't don't, I will accept wherever I end up because I don't think I would want to spend eternity in the presence of the God.

Some say that my take is rather arrogant, that I think I know more than God or the leaders of the Church. I say I just try and treat everyone around me as best I can with concern and respect, something I find difficult to do within the church.

I'm with you. I take a reasonable position as the opposite of arrogance. To many it's humble to pretend there's a God. Its almost as if people see the two ideas--belief in God and humility--as impossible without the other. If so, it's easy to say anyone who doesn't believe in God is arrogant, or at least not humble. That doesn't compute well for me.

dastardly stem wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:35 pm

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Fallacy of Generalization. I think what you mean is there are peoples in religion who do this. Religion itself isn't this way at all when done correctly.

Where is it done correctly? Religious moderation provides cover for fundamentalists. When done correctly, it seems to only make things worse in the big picture. Could be wrong of course, so what you got?

Religion itself is entirely a human creation as are the various gods they purport to exist.

But theism and religion are not at all the same thing. I think that one cannot disprove that some sort of creator(s) exists or did at one point.

Belief in impersonal deistic creators is not religion. Nor is agnosticism. But both do include the idea that beings we might call "gods" could exist.

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Alphus & Omegus
Religion is arrogant ignorance that markets itself as humility.

Fallacy of Generalization. I think what you mean is there are peoples in religion who do this. Religion itself isn't this way at all when done correctly.

You claim he’s engaging in a logical fallacy (which isn’t entirely accurate), but then you immediately drop a No True Scotsman. Why don’t you share with the board how one can ‘do religion’ correctly?

- Doc

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:37 pm

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Fallacy of Generalization. I think what you mean is there are peoples in religion who do this. Religion itself isn't this way at all when done correctly.

You claim he’s engaging in a logical fallacy (which isn’t entirely accurate), but then you immediately drop a No True Scotsman. Why don’t you share with the board how one can ‘do religion’ correctly?

- Doc

I think we can all agree that amongst religions, there are some which are better than Mormonism and some that are worse. Depending on your metric.

I think most would say Scientology is objectively worse than Mormonism, and Buddhism is objectively better. All things considered.

Philo is simply saying don't lump them all into one basket. All religions have their merits and warts.

Alphus and Omegus wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:29 pm

Religion itself is entirely a human creation as are the various gods they purport to exist.

But theism and religion are not at all the same thing. I think that one cannot disprove that some sort of creator(s) exists or did at one point.

Belief in impersonal deistic creators is not religion. Nor is agnosticism. But both do include the idea that beings we might call "gods" could exist.

Its fair to say religion and belief in God is not the same. I didn't really intend to go into that. In the OP I wished to clarify that our view of God, in this discussion is defined by religions we have on offer--Mormonism and Christianity.

Additionally, atheism also allows that gods could exist. It is after all simply an answer to a question as to whether one believes God, or gods, exists. Atheists typically say they do not believe god exists, not because they know or aren't open to the idea, but because every piece of evidence or argument for God's existence isn't convincing, logical, reasonable, thoughtful, useful, etc. On that I'll continue on the assumption that everyone agrees it's possible God exists. I'm open to all possibilities, even whatever the hell God Philo thinks is out there.

To me agnosticism is a question of what we know and only relates to what we believe as a byproduct. Agnosticism doesn't seem to work well on the question of "do you believe God exists?" If one answers, "i'm agnostic about it", that seems to be true for everyone since none of us know (even if many believers claim to know). Its possible someone knows one way or the other, but it certainly doesn't seem that way to me. The whole idea of knowing God exists belies the whole idea of believing God exists. The whole idea of not knowing God exists, or agnosticism, doesn't really tell us much about what one believes about the existence or non-existence of God. When someone says they are agnostic on whether they believe God exists or not, I tend to take that more as a they don't believe He exists. That just seems reasonable.

Thank you for answering my question.

Heavenly Father, thinking back to that pivotal moment so many years ago, I could have never imagined how you would work or where you would lead. Thank you for leading me to places I would have not chosen for myself.

Thank you, Lord, for the endless and steadfast love you have for us. On the days I get impatient with you, you lovingly remind me of who you are and what you’ve already done. I thank you, Lord, for the work you are doing in all of our lives. Please forgive me when I am not mindful or attentive to the needs of others. Please pour your love into my friend’s and acquaintance’s hearts, that they would know you, Lord. Help me trust in your perfect timing. May each of us, regular posters and onlookers, be loving and patient toward one another as we are all in different places on our individual spiritual journeys. Help us to bear one another’s burdens as we go through this life, and that we would minister to one another. May each one of us not be satisfied until each and every one of us comes to a full knowledge of you.
In Jesus’ precious name. Amen.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:37 pm

Philo Sofee wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:36 pm

Fallacy of Generalization. I think what you mean is there are peoples in religion who do this. Religion itself isn't this way at all when done correctly.

You claim he’s engaging in a logical fallacy (which isn’t entirely accurate), but then you immediately drop a No True Scotsman. Why don’t you share with the board how one can ‘do religion’ correctly?

- Doc

On your own, of course. Religion comes from relig - io - a linking back, or a linking to, which is interpreted by many as a linking back to your real self, as the many Enoch texts indicate. It has nothing to do with a church or scripture at all. It has everything to do with your own discovery, not based on what others say, preach, experience, etc. Simply refuting others' ideas is a waste of time, let them have them, who cares? But it is within yourself you must turn to discover truth. All else is eyewash.