Moved: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Wallaby Lover
Nursery
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:23 pm

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Wallaby Lover »

https://freedomofmind.com/left-wing-trotskyist-cult/

This is an article by Steven Hassan that explains how left-wing cults trick people into believing crazy ideologies that are often rooted in marxism. Very impressive and very worrying. Especially since our precious youth are routinely indoctrinated by the ideologies of left-wing cults. Mormonism seems tame compared to left wing indoctrination.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Res Ipsa »

Wallaby Lover wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:54 pm
https://freedomofmind.com/left-wing-trotskyist-cult/

This is an article by Steven Hassan that explains how left-wing cults trick people into believing crazy ideologies that are often rooted in marxism. Very impressive and very worrying. Especially since our precious youth are routinely indoctrinated by the ideologies of left-wing cults. Mormonism seems tame compared to left wing indoctrination.
You didn't read the article you posted, did you? If you're going to troll, at least put some effort into it.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5212
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by drumdude »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:04 pm
I am a religious believer. A political ideology I disagree with is bad because it is a religion.

I subscribe to a political ideology that has relentlessly demonized an ideology I disagree with for decades. They are bad because they call people names. Name calling is religion.

It's okay to be racist. It's bad to call something racist.
It's okay to be homophobic. It's bad to call something homophobic.
It's okay to be transphobic. It's bad to call something transphobic.
It's okay to be misogynistic. It's bad to call something misogynistic.
It's okay to deny facts. It's bad to call someone a denier.

After decades of calling members of a political ideology names, I am offended at people calling me names.
Bravo!

DCP uses this flawed logic at least once a month.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 pm
Wallaby Lover wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:54 pm
https://freedomofmind.com/left-wing-trotskyist-cult/

This is an article by Steven Hassan that explains how left-wing cults trick people into believing crazy ideologies that are often rooted in marxism. Very impressive and very worrying. Especially since our precious youth are routinely indoctrinated by the ideologies of left-wing cults. Mormonism seems tame compared to left wing indoctrination.
You didn't read the article you posted, did you? If you're going to troll, at least put some effort into it.
How about a self-own? From the website with regard to Mormonism and the BITE mode:

https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-mode ... hn-dehlin/

tl;dc - it’s a cult

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by huckelberry »

Wallaby Lover wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:54 pm
https://freedomofmind.com/left-wing-trotskyist-cult/

This is an article by Steven Hassan that explains how left-wing cults trick people into believing crazy ideologies that are often rooted in marxism. Very impressive and very worrying. Especially since our precious youth are routinely indoctrinated by the ideologies of left-wing cults. Mormonism seems tame compared to left wing indoctrination.
from the article,
I was pleased to learn that Aaron had been helped in his recovery by my work, including Combating Cult Mind Control. Even though I was recruited into a right-wing cult and Aaron was recruited into a left-wing cult, the parallels between his experience and mine are striking. One of the tools that Aaron used to increase his understanding of IMT and how it worked...

This whole article is worth a read. Now I see why Mike sounds like he is locked into some strange cult. I do not mean the LDS church but some weird political thing.

A person should not be surprised to learn that there are extremist political cults on both the left and the right.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Res Ipsa »

Steve Hassan is one of those people whose views one has to read carefully for comprehension. Many former Mormons have found his BITE model to be helpful in understanding their experience with Mormonism. But he hasn't independently studied or investigated the LDS church independently to apply his model to it. And, in my opinion, John Dehlin has had an outsized influence on Hassan's opinions.

The page on the LDS church includes the following disclaimer:
Disclaimer: Most of the group resource information was submitted by former members, academics, experts, and concerned individuals. It does not necessarily reflect the opinion of Freedom of Mind. We welcome any feedback.
https://freedomofmind.com/the-church-of ... ay-saints/

For Hassan, the term "cult" does not have a negative implication. His analysis differentiates between "cults" and "destructive cults."

Until today, I had never seen Hassan refer to the LDS church as a "destructive cult." But, as I will outline, it appears that his POV has been significantly influenced by John Dehlin.

In 2016, Hassan took an agnostic approach to the question of whether the LDS church was a "destructive cult." Rather than take a position, he outlined the questions he would ask about the LDS church and left the ultimate question up to the reader:
As American citizens, we are free to decide for ourselves who will best govern us. Similarly, it is our responsibility to decide which organizations have benign motives, and which could be harmful to our freedom and individuality. With cults, as with democracy, you have to make up your own mind. There is no substitute for the hard work of democracy– or for thinking for oneself.
https://freedomofmind.com/an-expert-res ... Mormonism/

I think the quote is consistent with the disclaimer on his site's page for the LDS church.

He defined "destructive cult" this way:
My definition of a destructive cult could be summed up as follows: a pyramid-shaped, authoritarian relationship or group that uses deception in recruiting (i.e., no informed consent) and the use of BITE techniques to create a pseudo-identity which is dependent and obedient.
In May of 2018, John Dehlin invited Hassan to appear on an episode of Mormon Stories, which he did. The title of the episode was: STEVEN HASSAN – WHAT THE Mormon CHURCH CAN LEARN FROM CULTS TO DO/BE BETTER. He came away with a very favorable impression of John:
John Dehlin was not a powerful Mormon leader. But he was a true believer. However, he realized that his coworker friends who he learned were gay were nice people and deserved respect, kindness, compassion and not judgment and condemnation. He decided to try to reform the Church he loved and he was kicked out for speaking his truth and demanding human rights for gays.

John is a fellow activist willing to stand up for and put up with all the issues of being vocal! I love his passion, his quest for human rights and his desire for activism.

I really wanted to speak with him and get to know him. I asked my assistant Jane to contact John and asked if he had read my book Combating Cult Mind Control yet, and, if he hadn’t, offer a review copy to read before we did the interview.

The rest is history, should I say? He loved the book and called it “transformative” and wrote this page on his website offering his analysis of my BITE model and the Mormon Church. What do you think? Posted above is the link to the fascinating podcast he did on my work and the hour we talked together. Please give it a listen and share it broadly if you think it is as valuable and we both think it is.
https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-mode ... hn-dehlin/

On the same page, you can see John's application of the BITE model to the LDS church. Hassan appears to have accepted John's analysis at face value, describing it later that year as a "wonderful analysis."

In January of 2022, Hassan published another blog entry on Dehlin, as a lead in to having Dehlin as a guest on his podcast. You can judge what he has to say about John for yourself, but the important part for me is this:
Dehlin used my BITE Model of Authoritarian Control to demonstrate that the Mormon Church operates as a cult, most significantly during the two-year missionary experience that is required of every young Mormon. During those two years, the missionaries are literally never allowed to be alone (except while in the bathroom). They are required to work 14-hour days for no pay, but still have to pay for their own lodging and food. When the missionaries are stationed in a foreign country, their passports are confiscated by the Church, effectively holding them prisoner.
https://freedomofmind.com/psychologist- ... ds-church/

Shortly afterword, Hassan did an AMA on Reddit that included this question and answer:
Would you identify Mormonism as a “destructive cult” as defined in your book? (I do.)

...

https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-mode ... hn-dehlin/ has the BITE model analysis. YES, is my answer.
If you look at Hassan's model, it is based on a continuum if influence, ranging from helpful to harmful. But treating all of the specific characteristics of an organization as yes/no questions loses the fundamental characteristic of Hassan's own analysis. I also find it very questionable for an expert to rely on the yes/no answers of a single former member's analysis in reaching such a sweeping conclusion. Every one of the colored factors involves differences in degree, which is simply ignored in the analysis Hassan relies on.

Like anything else, you get what you get. If a a member of the LDS church is going to cite Hassan as an authority on cults, they have to live with the fact that the person they hold out as an expert has concluded that their church is, in fact, a destructive cult. You will find no such conclusion about "liberals" or "conservatives," although Hassan will identify and talk about political cults: the Trotskyist cult in the OP and Qanon being prominent examples.

Personally, I think Hassan's undue influence model and the BITE model are helpful analytical tools. But his methodology of relying on black and white responses to a laundry list by a singled former member of a religion is crap, in my opinion, and he should know better.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Physics Guy »

“Liberalism” is a word people use for modernity if modernity frightens them.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Gadianton »

Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:07 am
“Liberalism” is a word people use for modernity if modernity frightens them.
I'll have to remember that one.
Wallaby Lover
Nursery
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:23 pm

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Wallaby Lover »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 pm
Wallaby Lover wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:54 pm
https://freedomofmind.com/left-wing-trotskyist-cult/

This is an article by Steven Hassan that explains how left-wing cults trick people into believing crazy ideologies that are often rooted in marxism. Very impressive and very worrying. Especially since our precious youth are routinely indoctrinated by the ideologies of left-wing cults. Mormonism seems tame compared to left wing indoctrination.
You didn't read the article you posted, did you? If you're going to troll, at least put some effort into it.
What makes you think I didn't read the article?
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The Next Mormonism May Very Well Be Liberalism

Post by Res Ipsa »

Wallaby Lover wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:20 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:01 pm


You didn't read the article you posted, did you? If you're going to troll, at least put some effort into it.
What makes you think I didn't read the article?
I'll take that as a "no."
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Post Reply