thread about covenants

[huckelberry]

No. I'm at work at cannot elaborate right now. Perhaps that is deserving of its own thread.

If you have the time and interest, I'd be interested in reading a thread on that topic.

Well here is a space for this sometimes laborious subject.

[huckelberry]

from wikapedia on Biblical covenants:
Number of biblical covenants

Students of the Bible hold wildly differing opinions as to how many major covenants exist (or did exist) between God and humanity, with numbers ranging from one to at least twelve. (See covenant theology and dispensationalism for further information on two of the major viewpoints.) Some scholars classify only two: a covenant of promise and a covenant of law. The former involved an oath taken by God - a word of promise instead of command - while the latter is known in the Bible as "the Law".[8]

///////
I gather that Msnobody may be attached to Westminister confession. When I put covenant into google it first brought the local Presbyterian, (in America, the more conservative group) named covenant presbyterian.

Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter vii
The distance between God and the creature is so great that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator yet they could never have any fruition of him as their blessedness and reward but by some voluntary condescension on Gods part which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.

The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works wherein life was promised to Adam and in him to his posterity upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

{huckelberry has doubts about this description of first covenant}

Man , by his fall having made himself uncapable of life by that covenant , the Lord was pleased to make a second commonly called the covenant of grace wherein he freely offereth unto sinner life and salvation by Jesus Christ requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved and promising to vie unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe.

(old fashioned spelling from the original)

[huckelberry]

relevant post from another thread,

Thing is that we are not able to keep the covenants. God is the only one who can keep the covenants on our behalf.

I thought this was an important consideration that msnobody has pointed out.

[malkie]

relevant post from another thread,

Thing is that we are not able to keep the covenants. God is the only one who can keep the covenants on our behalf.

I thought this was an important consideration that msnobody has pointed out.

Is it not the case that, in Mormonism, a covenant is an agreement between two parties, each of which has to perform certain acts to fulfill the covenant? So, for example, the Baptismal Covenant:

...

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous
Baptismal candidate promises
to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments,
God promises
that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

[bolded parts are my addition]

In this case it doesn't seem to make sense god can perform the member's part of the covenant for them.

Or am I so far gone ...?

[msnobody]

Probably most of what I would say would come from this site under Sermons > Series> Hebrews > The Better Covenant Parts 1 & 2. https://www.thbg.org/?T2 ( I can only get the audio file to play on my laptop and not my phone).

My bedtime is calling my name and my battery is low. More later.

[dastardly stem]

msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:22 pm
Thing is that we are not able to keep the covenants. God is the only one who can keep the covenants on our behalf.

What is a covenant if the other party in the agreement is the one actually keeping both sides of the agreement?

Lets say I agree with my child, if she cleans the kitchen for a week I'll give her an allowance. We covenant with each other and the week goes on. Lets say what ends up happening is I clean the kitchen all week because I know she couldn't do it right anyway and then at the end I decide to give her an allowance in full. The kitchen remained clean all week. If she was left to do it to earn her allowance, I doubt it would have been so clean. dishes might have built up in the sink and old food would have sat on the range, and she would have given every excuse imaginable if anyone ever mentioned her end of the bargain. People can't do it perfectly so it must be God doing it for us?

Let's say in the meantime I also covenant with my son. Clean the bathroom all week and I'll pay you an allowance. He agrees. The week goes on and the bathroom grows increasingly gross and grimey. At the end, he demands an allowance. I didn't do it for him, so the bathroom was gross. He doesn't get his allowance because I didn't keep his end of the covenant for him. I arbitrarily kept my daughter's end of the bargain for her and paid her. I decided not to do so for my son and told him, as he plead, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." My son runs off to weep and wail, gnashing his teeth.

The thing that really bothers me in this is religion is supposed to be something and mean something. people believe because it's a benefit to them. They are supposed to learn and grow. People who believe in God are supposed to change into something noticeably better. or something. But if God is simply the potter and humans are the clay how is any of that true? Believers don't get better than nonbelievers and, as it seems to be, God still has a desire to get violent on the nonbelievers, and apparently many of the believers whom he decided to never get to know.

[huckelberry]

It is certainly possible for a covenant to be conditional. It does not have to be , at least within Biblical usage.

Genesis9 :8-17
Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, Behold I establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you , and with every living creature that is with you , the birds the cattle and every beast of the earth with you ,as many as come out of the ark, I establish my covenant with you ,that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the water of a flood and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth . and God said this is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you an every living creature that is with you for all future generations; I set my bow in the cloud and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen n the clouds I will remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds I will look upon it a remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh this upon the earth God said to Noah This is the sign of the covenant which I have establilshed between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

[malkie]

It is certainly possible for a covenant to be conditional. It does not have to be , at least within Biblical usage.

Genesis9 :8-17
Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, Behold I establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you , and with every living creature that is with you , the birds the cattle and every beast of the earth with you ,as many as come out of the ark, I establish my covenant with you ,that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the water of a flood and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth . and God said this is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you an every living creature that is with you for all future generations; I set my bow in the cloud and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen n the clouds I will remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds I will look upon it a remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh this upon the earth God said to Noah This is the sign of the covenant which I have establilshed between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

If a covenant depends on performance on both sides of the agreement, can it ever be anything other than conditional?

[huckelberry]

msnobody wrote: ↑Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:22 pm
Thing is that we are not able to keep the covenants. God is the only one who can keep the covenants on our behalf.

What is a covenant if the other party in the agreement is the one actually keeping both sides of the agreement?

Lets say I agree with my child, if she cleans the kitchen for a week I'll give her an allowance. We covenant with each other and the week goes on. Lets say what ends up happening is I clean the kitchen all week because I know she couldn't do it right anyway and then at the end I decide to give her an allowance in full. The kitchen remained clean all week. If she was left to do it to earn her allowance, I doubt it would have been so clean. dishes might have built up in the sink and old food would have sat on the range, and she would have given every excuse imaginable if anyone ever mentioned her end of the bargain. People can't do it perfectly so it must be God doing it for us?

Let's say in the meantime I also covenant with my son. Clean the bathroom all week and I'll pay you an allowance. He agrees. The week goes on and the bathroom grows increasingly gross and grimey. At the end, he demands an allowance. I didn't do it for him, so the bathroom was gross. He doesn't get his allowance because I didn't keep his end of the covenant for him. I arbitrarily kept my daughter's end of the bargain for her and paid her. I decided not to do so for my son and told him, as he plead, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." My son runs off to weep and wail, gnashing his teeth.

The thing that really bothers me in this is religion is supposed to be something and mean something. people believe because it's a benefit to them. They are supposed to learn and grow. People who believe in God are supposed to change into something noticeably better. or something. But if God is simply the potter and humans are the clay how is any of that true? Believers don't get better than nonbelievers and, as it seems to be, God still has a desire to get violent on the nonbelievers, and apparently many of the believers whom he decided to never get to know.

Stem, I can see good sense in your examples of why a conditional covenant is important. We all make agreements where something is expected in return. Any parent is going to use those sort of covenants. However I am sure you also consider that a parent has a covenant within themselves to love the child. That covenant is not conditional on the child doing the chores or even avoiding bad choices. Just because the parent has this covenant of love that does not always give them clear choices on how to deal with a child's bad actions. A parent will apply influence in the ways they understand to be most influential to guide the child.

That is like the relationship between potter and clay. The potter influences the shape of the clay. When people speak of God as potter and themselves as clay they mean God is influencing them in ways through which they learn and change. People speak of it in the mode of a thankyou as they are glad of the change they are making. Now it is possible some people are indifferent to the potter and remain mishapen so the potter rejects that lump to start over. I know of no reason to think the potter would be happy over that but if you have thrown clay on a wheel you know that sometimes the process just has to be started over again.

[huckelberry]

It is certainly possible for a covenant to be conditional. It does not have to be , at least within Biblical usage.

Genesis9 :8-17
Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, Behold I establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you , and with every living creature that is with you , the birds the cattle and every beast of the earth with you ,as many as come out of the ark, I establish my covenant with you ,that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the water of a flood and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth . and God said this is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you an every living creature that is with you for all future generations; I set my bow in the cloud and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen n the clouds I will remember my covenant which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh and the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. When the bow is in the clouds I will look upon it a remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh this upon the earth God said to Noah This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

If a covenant depends on performance on both sides of the agreement, can it ever be anything other than conditional?

Malkie, it is certainly possible for a covenant to depend upon performance on both sides and would be considered conditional.Most probably work with that pattern. The example I copied out is the other kind. There is no requirement for people animals plants or the earth to do anything. They are given a promise.