thread about covenants

[Res Ipsa]

If a covenant depends on performance on both sides of the agreement, can it ever be anything other than conditional?

Malkie, it is certainly possible for a covenant to depend upon performance on both sides and would be considered conditional.Most probably work with that pattern. The example I copied out is the other kind. There is no requirement for people animals plants or the earth to do anything. They are given a promise.

Okay, I was curious and did a little reading. I saw discussion of the fact that the Bible contains both conditional and non-conditional covenants. Noaich -- unconditional. Abrahamic -- unconditional. Mosaic -- conditional.

I saw one article that I think fits with what msnobody said. It described two conditional covenants -- saved by works and saved by grace. Saved by works was broken by Adam when he ate the fruit. As a result of the fall, no human could fulfill that covenant because it was not possible for us to live perfect lives. But Jesus (part of the Triune God) fulfilled it for humanity. So, God fulfilled a conditional covenant that it was impossible for humans to fulfill. Christ's life, death and resurrection brought about the new covenant of "saved by grace."

Something like that.

Other than that, I couldn't find an example of God fulfilling the human promise in a conditional covenant.

[Jersey Girl]

The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works wherein life was promised to Adam and in him to his posterity upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

{huckelberry has doubts about this description of first covenant}

Man , by his fall having made himself uncapable of life by that covenant , the Lord was pleased to make a second commonly called the covenant of grace wherein he freely offereth unto sinner life and salvation by Jesus Christ requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved and promising to vie unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe.

(old fashioned spelling from the original)

huck what you refer to as covenant of grace, many refer to as the New Covenant. Perhaps someone has already mentioned that.

[huckelberry]

The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works wherein life was promised to Adam and in him to his posterity upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

{huckelberry has doubts about this description of first covenant}

Man , by his fall having made himself uncapable of life by that covenant , the Lord was pleased to make a second commonly called the covenant of grace wherein he freely offereth unto sinner life and salvation by Jesus Christ requiring of them faith in him that they may be saved and promising to vie unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life his Holy Spirit to make them willing and able to believe.

(old fashioned spelling from the original)

huck what you refer to as covenant of grace, many refer to as the New Covenant. Perhaps someone has already mentioned that.

Jersey Girl, You are certainly correct. this subject of covenant has a variety of somewhat differing language theories and doctrines around it. I took the above words directly from Westminister confession.(a hardcore calvinist statement which has some clarity but I and many other have some reservations about)

I am inclined to think of the New covenant, Jesus's offer of faith, as a sum of the other covenants God made.

[huckelberry]

Malkie, it is certainly possible for a covenant to depend upon performance on both sides and would be considered conditional.Most probably work with that pattern. The example I copied out is the other kind. There is no requirement for people animals plants or the earth to do anything. They are given a promise.

Okay, I was curious and did a little reading. I saw discussion of the fact that the Bible contains both conditional and non-conditional covenants. Noaich -- unconditional. Abrahamic -- unconditional. Mosaic -- conditional.

I saw one article that I think fits with what msnobody said. It described two conditional covenants -- saved by works and saved by grace. Saved by works was broken by Adam when he ate the fruit. As a result of the fall, no human could fulfill that covenant because it was not possible for us to live perfect lives. But Jesus (part of the Triune God) fulfilled it for humanity. So, God fulfilled a conditional covenant that it was impossible for humans to fulfill. Christ's life, death and resurrection brought about the new covenant of "saved by grace."

Something like that.

Other than that, I couldn't find an example of God fulfilling the human promise in a conditional covenant.

Res Ipsa, I am pretty sure that is the only one. Of course that is the one that people are concerned with.

[dastardly stem]

Stem, I can see good sense in your examples of why a conditional covenant is important. We all make agreements where something is expected in return. Any parent is going to use those sort of covenants. However I am sure you also consider that a parent has a covenant within themselves to love the child. That covenant is not conditional on the child doing the chores or even avoiding bad choices. Just because the parent has this covenant of love that does not always give them clear choices on how to deal with a child's bad actions. A parent will apply influence in the ways they understand to be most influential to guide the child.

That is like the relationship between potter and clay. The potter influences the shape of the clay. When people speak of God as potter and themselves as clay they mean God is influencing them in ways through which they learn and change. People speak of it in the mode of a thankyou as they are glad of the change they are making. Now it is possible some people are indifferent to the potter and remain mishapen so the potter rejects that lump to start over. I know of no reason to think the potter would be happy over that but if you have thrown clay on a wheel you know that sometimes the process just has to be started over again.

Thanks Huckelberry. I have another related question, at least related in the way I see it. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing what prevents Him from shaping each specimen of clay into that which He'd like to see? What I mean by that is, apparently, God will not save all. And all people are simply subject to God shaping them. If anyone of us, in our weakness struggles with God, would it not be on Him to provide that person just what they need to actually allow him to do the shaping?

I hope that makes sense and am looking forward to your thougths.

[huckelberry]

Stem, I can see good sense in your examples of why a conditional covenant is important. We all make agreements where something is expected in return. Any parent is going to use those sort of covenants. However I am sure you also consider that a parent has a covenant within themselves to love the child. That covenant is not conditional on the child doing the chores or even avoiding bad choices. Just because the parent has this covenant of love that does not always give them clear choices on how to deal with a child's bad actions. A parent will apply influence in the ways they understand to be most influential to guide the child.

That is like the relationship between potter and clay. The potter influences the shape of the clay. When people speak of God as potter and themselves as clay they mean God is influencing them in ways through which they learn and change. People speak of it in the mode of a thankyou as they are glad of the change they are making. Now it is possible some people are indifferent to the potter and remain mishapen so the potter rejects that lump to start over. I know of no reason to think the potter would be happy over that but if you have thrown clay on a wheel you know that sometimes the process just has to be started over again.

Thanks Huckelberry. I have another related question, at least related in the way I see it. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing what prevents Him from shaping each specimen of clay into that which He'd like to see? What I mean by that is, apparently, God will not save all. And all people are simply subject to God shaping them. If anyone of us, in our weakness struggles with God, would it not be on Him to provide that person just what they need to actually allow him to do the shaping?

I hope that makes sense and am looking forward to your thoughts.

Stem, your question is of course significant. It is one which people have viewed in a variety of ways. Despite variety I am not aware of a line of thought which does not see God as concerned for preserving the individuals role in the process. The individuals own thinking and decisions are of real value so God does not simply override them.

[msnobody]

Like I said in a previous post where I provided a link to The Better Covenant Part 1 & 2 [https://www.thbg.org/?T2], most of what I am posting below is gleaned, and some word for word, from listening to those two sermons. What I've learned in studying this is that God did not enable the Israelites to keep the righteous law of God, wherein the new covenant, God enables persons. The law was designed to make them (and us) conscious of sin, and thereby pointing them (and us) to their (our) need for a Savior (ie the promised seed). There was something else that stood out to me, but I don't remember what it was. I've got to start writing this stuff down.


Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
Hebrews 8:6-13 ESV

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Covenant- A transaction or agreement between two parties whereby each party agrees to fulfill certain obligations and was promised certain advantages.


The promise-plan of God—(declaration of God to the human race revealed in redemptive history)
1. I will be your God
2. You will be my people
3. I will tabernacle with you (Exodus 29:45-46)


Old Testament references to the “seed” as the promised plan of God
- “Seed” who would defeat Satan (Gen. 3:15)
- Blessing upon the whole world through the “seed” (Gen. 12:2-3)
- Promise of an eternal throne established through the “seed” (2 Sam. 7:16)
- Promise of a new covenant established through the “seed” (Jer. 31:31-34)
- The “seed”- The individual man [Christ] who consummates God’s promise in history (Gal. 3:16)



Mosaic (Old) Covenant
- Centered on God giving his divine law to Moses on Mt. Sinai, covenant made with Israel
- Conditional (the blessings God promises are directly related to Israel’s obedience to the Mosaic Law; if Israel obeys, God will bless them, if Israel disobeys, God will punish them)
- A covenant established and maintained entirely by God (disobedience did not nullify it)
- Mediated by priests
- The Levitical priests were limited by their:
- Lineage (who they were descended from)
- Morality (they could not make a continuing on ongoing atonement-- they died)
- Sinfulness (they had to atone for their own sins first)
- Imperfect Offering (they had nothing perfect to offer, it was tainted by sin)
- Place of Offering (the temple was a shadowy copy, man-made building

The Levitical priesthood was contained in a “faulty” covenant (v. 7)
- God took no specific action to make the people morally able to keep the covenant (v. 9c)
- Ministry of the old covenant is one of dead ritual which never brought justification (Rom. 3:20)
- Designed to lead man to a knowledge of his sin (Rom.3:20)


New Covenant
- The consummation of all the previous covenants
- A covenant of grace
- A covenant established by the Son of God (Luke 22:20 new covenant “in my blood”)
- Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
- Ministry of the new covenant is one of grace which brings us directly into God’s presence


The changes of the new covenant
- God will put the “law” into the minds of those in the new covenant (v. 10b)
- God will “write” the law on the hearts (ie the will) of those in the new covenant (v. 10c)
- God will “be” the God of those in the new covenant (v. 10d)
- God will be “known” by those in the new covenant (v. 11)
- God will be “merciful” of the sin of those in the new covenant (v. 12)
- A real forgiveness and righteousness will be found; ritualism and religion will be done away with, brings justification
- Will unite that which is divided [Israel/Judah, God/man]
- Will be universal, not limited to a specific ethnic group
- Based on internal desire—the old was based in external ritual (vv. 10-11)

Promise Plan of God
1. Jesus is the Person of God. Those who belong to Jesus belong to God.
2. Jesus has a people who are his own given to him by the Father (John 6:37)
3. The incarnate Son of God tabernacles with human beings.

In the new covenant, God will regenerate people into morally able individuals (I will write the law on their hearts [on their moral will].

Biblical regeneration- The work of the Holy Spirit, through the preaching or hearing of the Word of God, to change the moral will of an individual so that he or she can respond to God’s offer of salvation in both repentance and faith.

[msnobody]

I found the other thing that stood out to me and wanted to ask if anyone thinks this may mean what I think it means.

I have sometimes thought about how God gave the law to the Jews. He didn’t enable them to be able to keep the law, yet, they, in general, continue to try to keep the law. I’m sure most would have come to the realization that they are unable to meet the righteous requirements of the law, yet, many of those may have have not abandoned the law. Could the bolded portion of the text below be the reason?

Exodus 29: 9
So Moses came and called the elders of the people and set before them all these words that the LORD had commanded him. All the people answered together and said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do.” And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD. And the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.”

[bill4long]

Well here is a space for this sometimes laborious subject.

If I'm not mistaken - and I'd like to think that I'm not - the first "covenant" appears in Genesis 6:18/9:9. Something about not killing just about everything on the planet ever again via a flood. (I have it on good authority that the fish, other sea creatures, and the water birds were a little disappointed by this, as they were planning on taking over the planet.)

[bill4long]

According to the Hebrew scriptures, the "new covenant" that Yahweh makes with Israel will occur after the Northern tribes have returned to the land.

See Ezekiel 36:24-27 cf Jeremiah 31:31-34. (There are others.) And notice, that "no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know Yahweh,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest". Clearly this has not occurred which means the New Covenant has not yet been established.