DiscussMormonism.com

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:12 am

Some interesting observations, but I need to (slightly) disagree. I think that the Brethren—some of them, anyhow—*do* care about what the Mopologists are up to. The very fact that they were booted out of the Maxwell Institute would seem to be evidence of that. And prior to the purge, there were rumors swirling about BKP intervening in the Mopologists’ attacks on Rodney Meldrum. Meanwhile, when it suits them, the Mopologists will boast about their “connections” with the Brethren, and they will simultaneously try to discredit other LDS (such as Meldrum) who do the same.

I still think their conflict with the Heartlanders is a powder keg. Loyalty can be an asset—sure. But at the expense of destroying other Latter-day Saints’ faith? One gets the sense that the Interpreter Mopologists are trying to prove that they are *more loyal* than the Heartlanders, but this is proving to be a difficult and deeply problematic task.

They’re desperately trying to salvage a literal interpretation of the Book of Mormon. They think that if the brethren give into the non-literalists, then Mormonism is done. DCP doesn’t hide the fact that it’s a huge fear of his, and one of his primary focuses.

Heartlanders are the wrong kind of literalists, and take away resources and credibility from the mezo-America literalist crusade.

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:12 am

Some interesting observations, but I need to (slightly) disagree. I think that the Brethren—some of them, anyhow—*do* care about what the Mopologists are up to. The very fact that they were booted out of the Maxwell Institute would seem to be evidence of that. And prior to the purge, there were rumors swirling about BKP intervening in the Mopologists’ attacks on Rodney Meldrum. Meanwhile, when it suits them, the Mopologists will boast about their “connections” with the Brethren, and they will simultaneously try to discredit other LDS (such as Meldrum) who do the same.

I still think their conflict with the Heartlanders is a powder keg. Loyalty can be an asset—sure. But at the expense of destroying other Latter-day Saints’ faith? One gets the sense that the Interpreter Mopologists are trying to prove that they are *more loyal* than the Heartlanders, but this is proving to be a difficult and deeply problematic task.

Hmmm. Well, individually interested? Sure! Collectively supportive or even aware? I am much less sure of that. In fact, I am doubtful. You bring up BKP, and I am reminded of the times we know he was meddling in things on his own initiative.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:38 am

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:12 am

Some interesting observations, but I need to (slightly) disagree. I think that the Brethren—some of them, anyhow—*do* care about what the Mopologists are up to. The very fact that they were booted out of the Maxwell Institute would seem to be evidence of that. And prior to the purge, there were rumors swirling about BKP intervening in the Mopologists’ attacks on Rodney Meldrum. Meanwhile, when it suits them, the Mopologists will boast about their “connections” with the Brethren, and they will simultaneously try to discredit other LDS (such as Meldrum) who do the same.

I still think their conflict with the Heartlanders is a powder keg. Loyalty can be an asset—sure. But at the expense of destroying other Latter-day Saints’ faith? One gets the sense that the Interpreter Mopologists are trying to prove that they are *more loyal* than the Heartlanders, but this is proving to be a difficult and deeply problematic task.

Hmmm. Well, individually interested? Sure! Collectively supportive or even aware? I am much less sure of that. In fact, I am doubtful. You bring up BKP, and I am reminded of the times we know he was meddling in things on his own initiative.

some GA or another wrote:Dan Peterson?

Is that the guy who sometimes writes a little column about something or another in the DN?

Is he a Sunday School teacher somewhere?

drumdude wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:33 am

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:12 am

Some interesting observations, but I need to (slightly) disagree. I think that the Brethren—some of them, anyhow—*do* care about what the Mopologists are up to. The very fact that they were booted out of the Maxwell Institute would seem to be evidence of that. And prior to the purge, there were rumors swirling about BKP intervening in the Mopologists’ attacks on Rodney Meldrum. Meanwhile, when it suits them, the Mopologists will boast about their “connections” with the Brethren, and they will simultaneously try to discredit other LDS (such as Meldrum) who do the same.

I still think their conflict with the Heartlanders is a powder keg. Loyalty can be an asset—sure. But at the expense of destroying other Latter-day Saints’ faith? One gets the sense that the Interpreter Mopologists are trying to prove that they are *more loyal* than the Heartlanders, but this is proving to be a difficult and deeply problematic task.

They’re desperately trying to salvage a literal interpretation of the Book of Mormon. They think that if the brethren give into the non-literalists, then Mormonism is done. DCP doesn’t hide the fact that it’s a huge fear of his, and one of his primary focuses.

Heartlanders are the wrong kind of literalists, and take away resources and credibility from the mezo-America literalist crusade.

The reality that the Interpreter crowd hasn't yet admitted is that Book of Mormon literalism collapsed in the late 90s.

Additionally, the housing of "Mormon studies" inside of formal universities meant that its practioners had to accept the obvious fact that Mormonism was just one of many charismatic Protestant movements started in 19th century frontier America.

As the overseers of BYU, the general authorities, at least some of them, have had to come into contact with these two societal realities. It's why DCP and his neo-fundamentalist friends had to be kicked out at BYU. They were an embarrassment to serious scholars with their absurd literalism. And deep down, even Dan and friends probably realize this. It's why they are so constantly angry.

Yep. Just look at John Gee’s face in any video. It’s like he became a Michelin star chef and then had to go work for Trump flipping McDonalds double cheeseburgers for the rest of his life.

He’s really putting those Egyptology skills to good use!

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:38 am

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 5:12 am

Some interesting observations, but I need to (slightly) disagree. I think that the Brethren—some of them, anyhow—*do* care about what the Mopologists are up to. The very fact that they were booted out of the Maxwell Institute would seem to be evidence of that. And prior to the purge, there were rumors swirling about BKP intervening in the Mopologists’ attacks on Rodney Meldrum. Meanwhile, when it suits them, the Mopologists will boast about their “connections” with the Brethren, and they will simultaneously try to discredit other LDS (such as Meldrum) who do the same.

I still think their conflict with the Heartlanders is a powder keg. Loyalty can be an asset—sure. But at the expense of destroying other Latter-day Saints’ faith? One gets the sense that the Interpreter Mopologists are trying to prove that they are *more loyal* than the Heartlanders, but this is proving to be a difficult and deeply problematic task.

Hmmm. Well, individually interested? Sure! Collectively supportive or even aware? I am much less sure of that. In fact, I am doubtful. You bring up BKP, and I am reminded of the times we know he was meddling in things on his own initiative.

Yes: good points. I suppose I was responding primarily to Dr. Moore's remark about the "loyalty box." The Mopologists, I think it's fair to say, have a complicated relationship with the GAs. Back during the MI heydays, they used to invite Oaks and others from the Twelve to talk at the annual FARMS dinner around the holidays, and they certainly had a "cozy" relationship with some of the Brethren. Meanwhile, they were engaged in what can legitimately be called full-blown insubordination in regards to other of the Brethren--e.g., Midgley's remark that they were waiting for Elder Mark E. Petersen *to die* so that they could publish on the LGT. And then there is Skousen's project, and the fact that he thumbed his nose at the Brethren when they told him to ditch his critical text project--and the Mopologists have supported him all along. So "loyalty" is not quite the right word, though it's not wrong, either.

I imagine that the Mopologists' relationship with the GAs has a certain level of Game of Thrones-esque political intrigue, backstabbing, gossip, and so on. If you caught the recent season of House of the Dragon, there was a scene towards the end (without giving too much away) where Rhaenyra dispatches envoys to make sure that certain houses are "loyal to the cause," and I imagine that it's sort of like that. But there are other "causes," too. Sure: the Interpreter crowd managed to get Elder Gay to come talk at their yearly celebration, but the Heartlanders have had GAs on their side, too. (And Midgley got in the face of one of these guys, as I recall.) I guess, then, that I wouldn't say that the Mopologists get a "free pass" on account of loyalty, but, instead, that they aren't brought to heel because enough of the Brethren consider them to be "useful," even if they are causing damage in various ways.

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm

…And then there is Skousen's project, and the fact that he thumbed his nose at the Brethren when they told him to ditch his critical text project--and the Mopologists have supported him all along….

This is really interesting to me. The 15 officially don’t seem to even recognize Skousen, and it seemed the Interpreter was forced to or chose to pick up payment for the project when the lds church through MI wouldn’t. Maybe I’ll start a different thread because it seems like there is still a lot going on behind the scenes here.

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm

Yes: good points. I suppose I was responding primarily to Dr. Moore's remark about the "loyalty box." The Mopologists, I think it's fair to say, have a complicated relationship with the GAs. Back during the MI heydays, they used to invite Oaks and others from the Twelve to talk at the annual FARMS dinner around the holidays, and they certainly had a "cozy" relationship with some of the Brethren. Meanwhile, they were engaged in what can legitimately be called full-blown insubordination in regards to other of the Brethren--e.g., Midgley's remark that they were waiting for Elder Mark E. Petersen *to die* so that they could publish on the LGT. And then there is Skousen's project, and the fact that he thumbed his nose at the Brethren when they told him to ditch his critical text project--and the Mopologists have supported him all along. So "loyalty" is not quite the right word, though it's not wrong, either.

I imagine that the Mopologists' relationship with the GAs has a certain level of Game of Thrones-esque political intrigue, backstabbing, gossip, and so on. If you caught the recent season of House of the Dragon, there was a scene towards the end (without giving too much away) where Rhaenyra dispatches envoys to make sure that certain houses are "loyal to the cause," and I imagine that it's sort of like that. But there are other "causes," too. Sure: the Interpreter crowd managed to get Elder Gay to come talk at their yearly celebration, but the Heartlanders have had GAs on their side, too. (And Midgley got in the face of one of these guys, as I recall.) I guess, then, that I wouldn't say that the Mopologists get a "free pass" on account of loyalty, but, instead, that they aren't brought to heel because enough of the Brethren consider them to be "useful," even if they are causing damage in various ways.

Agreed. I think the key point is *useful.* With few half-literate people willing to put their necks on the line to defend every gaffe, boner, and downright harmful thing the Brethren have done, the Mopologists show themselves to be the unwaveringly loyal in their attacks on the critics, even when on occasion they grumble about anonymous or long-dead leaders, and that makes them *useful* to the Brethren. Have PhD, will troll critics? Welcome to the club, until, that is, you cease being *useful.*

Kishkumen wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:50 pm

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:19 pm

Yes: good points. I suppose I was responding primarily to Dr. Moore's remark about the "loyalty box." The Mopologists, I think it's fair to say, have a complicated relationship with the GAs. Back during the MI heydays, they used to invite Oaks and others from the Twelve to talk at the annual FARMS dinner around the holidays, and they certainly had a "cozy" relationship with some of the Brethren. Meanwhile, they were engaged in what can legitimately be called full-blown insubordination in regards to other of the Brethren--e.g., Midgley's remark that they were waiting for Elder Mark E. Petersen *to die* so that they could publish on the LGT. And then there is Skousen's project, and the fact that he thumbed his nose at the Brethren when they told him to ditch his critical text project--and the Mopologists have supported him all along. So "loyalty" is not quite the right word, though it's not wrong, either.

I imagine that the Mopologists' relationship with the GAs has a certain level of Game of Thrones-esque political intrigue, backstabbing, gossip, and so on. If you caught the recent season of House of the Dragon, there was a scene towards the end (without giving too much away) where Rhaenyra dispatches envoys to make sure that certain houses are "loyal to the cause," and I imagine that it's sort of like that. But there are other "causes," too. Sure: the Interpreter crowd managed to get Elder Gay to come talk at their yearly celebration, but the Heartlanders have had GAs on their side, too. (And Midgley got in the face of one of these guys, as I recall.) I guess, then, that I wouldn't say that the Mopologists get a "free pass" on account of loyalty, but, instead, that they aren't brought to heel because enough of the Brethren consider them to be "useful," even if they are causing damage in various ways.

Agreed. I think the key point is *useful.* With few half-literate people willing to put their necks on the line to defend very gaffe, boner, and downright harmful thing the Brethren have done, the Mopologists show themselves to be the unwaveringly loyal in their attacks on the critics, even when on occasion they grumble about anonymous or long-dead leaders, and that makes them *useful* to the Brethren. Have PhD, will troll critics? Welcome to the club, until, that is, you cease being *useful.*

As BKP might put it: "Some apologists aren't very useful"?

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:38 pm

As BKP might put it: "Some apologists aren't very useful"?

As Dr. Peterson would remind Packer:

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at weekly briefings, you want us on that wall -- you need us on that wall. When it comes time to slither through that mud behind enemy lines, no other group does it better. Not those "scholars" at the Maxwell and certainly not those Heartlanders.