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I'm currently watching my grandfather slowly die of Alzheimers and reflecting on how much more horrific and awful it is than anything Christ could have gone through.

The biggest issue with Christ is that he knew that God is real. He knew that heaven is real. He knew that life after death exists. Real people who die face dying with zero knowledge of any of this. They face dying with faith alone. And even though my grandfather was a man of faith when he still had his mind, he did not see God. He did not remember the "pre-existence" if there was one. Christ had it extremely easy on the Cross, knowing that it was only temporary pain - less than a week. In contrast, my grandfather has been slowly losing his mind for the last 6+ years.

I've heard Mormons say so often during testimony meeting how the real atonement occured in the garden of Gethsemane, because God withdrew from Christ. Well how about God taking away your entire brain, neuron by neuron? Christ didn't experience that, did he?

If the atonement is predicated on Christ suffering the worst possible death, then there is no hope that he accomplished anything by being crucified. Normal people who die every single day go through 100x the pain and suffering than he ever could have in those 3 days. To say nothing of people who die heroic deaths - like those who gave their lives on the beaches of France in WWII.

That's my rant. Alzheimer's damned sucks and in my opinion is irreconcilable with a loving God that could prevent it.

Alzheimer’s runs in my Dad’s family. My grandfather died of it, and it was heartbreaking to watch what it to him. I have an uncle who is dying from it now, and an aunt housed in a care facility with dementia. I dread the likely day when the disease hits my father. His memory and concentration are already affected.

It sucks.

Res Ipsa wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:41 pm

Alzheimer’s runs in my Dad’s family. My grandfather died of it, and it was heartbreaking to watch what it to him. I have an uncle who is dying from it now, and an aunt housed in a care facility with dementia. I dread the likely day when the disease hits my father. His memory and concentration are already affected.

It sucks.

I’m so sorry. I hope it’s just normal aging and he doesn’t have it. I get the same fears every time my parents talk about forgetting something.

Drumdude, I do not wish to dismiss your complaint. life is unfair and and a variety of possibilities in aging are bad.
quite bad, I will not stop your rage. I do not wish to stop it.

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I am not inclined to think the idea of Jesus suffering some super amount to match everybody's sin makes any sense. Lots of people suffer. Back then a lot of people were crucified. As you point out there are many ways to encounter suffering.

I do not believe Jesus knew the stuff you mentioned. I think he had to live by faith just as all the rest of us do.

Drumdude, I’m sorry someone you are close to and love has Alzheimer’s. My only experience with dementia is my FIL whose dementia didn’t worsen until his mid-80’s, an uncle who experienced it for 12 years, and the nursing home residents I worked with for eight years. So, really although I have been around it a good bit, I’ve really never experienced it with a very close relative except for my FIL.

I do know that as my mother aged and her hearing got really bad, even with hearing aids, we were less and less able to interact with her. You could tell also that her body was really tired. It was like a part of her was already gone. I remember thinking how I was already missing her. So, magnify that with Alzheimer’s dementia, and I know it must be heartbreaking.

Hugs to you drumdude. <3

I get it. And so is everything else.

Now, Pick 1:

#1 nothing matters

#2 there is some transcendent reason for your silly earth life

Now...

#2 has a lot of options.

Not necessary some sort of thing that any particular religion spouts on about.

There are a lot of interesting options.

Maybe they're all poppycock...

But it's fun for some of us to contemplate the options before death.

Death. Yeah, baby! It's rushing at you, coming sooner or later.

Drumdude, how have we reached the conclusion that Jesus retained an actual memory of his life with God, as opposed to him simply having a very strong belief?

drumdude wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:24 pm

I'm currently watching my grandfather slowly die of Alzheimers and reflecting on how much more horrific and awful it is than anything Christ could have gone through.

Are you sure about that? I didn't think Alzheimer's caused any physical pain, much less the type of pain Christ allegedly went through.

I think there may be something to the Atonement and that it may be important, but all the explanations of the Atonement that I have heard must be garbled somehow, because they don't make sense to me, either.

I'm worried about dementia as well. My mother-in-law is suffering from it now, and it's sad and scary. The fact that there are also lots of other bad things about growing old doesn't make it any better, and the alternative of dying young seems worse than all of them.

If I were offered the choice between dying badly, though, and not existing at all in the first place, I would choose existence with almost any kind of death, for myself or my loved ones. I'd rather lose them, having known them for as long as I had with them, than never have known them at all. Existence is a big gift, and if there is a God, then it's God's gift. I don't understand why it couldn't have been even better, and I wish it were better, but I can't say that God owes me.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:38 pm

I do not believe Jesus knew the stuff you mentioned. I think he had to live by faith just as all the rest of us do.

Are you suggesting a god incarnate who led a sinless life and was ‘obedient’ until the end didn’t know he was a god, or that there was an atonement plan wherein he was the lynchpin?

- Doc