DiscussMormonism.com

https://youtu.be/s4fUmXN-HNI

Since I am coming at the New Testament this year (a counter balance of the church and what they say), I found this utterly fascinating discussion with Rabbi Tovia Singer which I share clips of with my own commentary as I take his challenge directly and we can all see the results. This dude is one very serious scholar and smart man. He KNOWS his stuff man!

Listening now. Interesting Jewish perspective on Jesus.

Keep up the excellent scholarship, BYP!

Listening now, Professor. Thank you for this!

Thanks guys. If you would be so kind and give me a like as you will. Leave a comment also, I love comments!

I checked his Wikipedia page. From what I can tell he is in a ministry to keep Jews from getting deceived by Messianic Jews/Christians into thinking they are Jewish. Given that there are parallel complains from Christians towards Mormons (i.e. Mormons pretending to be Christians), he seems to be basically in the same business as James White is.

I really couldn't care less about any of that. But, what he isn't is a scholar that would have any knowledge of how Christians use or misuse Jewish scriptures. He is Yeshiva educated, meaning he can interpret Torah and Talmud from within an Orthodox Jewish perspective. I wish him all the best in doing that. However, I wouldn't trust Trinity Evangelical Divinity School to give me information on how Jews misuse the Old Testament, because all of the scholars there are about as qualified to do that as Rabbi Singer seems to be in opining how Christians misuse scripture. On top of that, there seems to be something wrong with Jews or Christians telling each other how they misuse stuff. It seems obvious they already disagree and think each other misses something fundamental at the interpretive level.

Failed Prophecy wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:17 am

I checked his Wikipedia page. From what I can tell he is in a ministry to keep Jews from getting deceived by Messianic Jews/Christians into thinking they are Jewish. Given that there are parallel complains from Christians towards Mormons (i.e. Mormons pretending to be Christians), he seems to be basically in the same business as James White is.

I really couldn't care less about any of that. But, what he isn't is a scholar that would have any knowledge of how Christians use or misuse Jewish scriptures. He is Yeshiva educated, meaning he can interpret Torah and Talmud from within an Orthodox Jewish perspective. I wish him all the best in doing that. However, I wouldn't trust Trinity Evangelical Divinity School to give me information on how Jews misuse the Old Testament, because all of the scholars there are about as qualified to do that as Rabbi Singer seems to be in opining how Christians misuse scripture. On top of that, there seems to be something wrong with Jews or Christians telling each other how they misuse stuff. It seems obvious they already disagree and think each other misses something fundamental at the interpretive level.

Ha! Such a great point! Thanks man. It is just so fun having others' points of view so we can see variegated approaches and their strengths and weaknesses.

Failed Prophecy wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:17 am

However, I wouldn't trust Trinity Evangelical Divinity School to give me information on how Jews misuse the Old Testament, because all of the scholars there are about as qualified to do that as Rabbi Singer seems to be in opining how Christians misuse scripture. On top of that, there seems to be something wrong with Jews or Christians telling each other how they misuse stuff. It seems obvious they already disagree and think each other misses something fundamental at the interpretive level.

What about the crossover in shared knowledge base and reasoning? Same with Mormons and Muslims.

Christianity is one brand of Hellenistic Judaism that evolved to cater to Gentiles. Creative use of scripture is par for the course. I should think well informed Jews in the Rabbinical tradition would recognize that endless discussion and reinterpretation come with the territory in scriptural discourse. To say that Christians just get it wrong is, to my mind, nothing more than saying that Jews in the Rabbinical tradition disapprove of particular Christian readings of scripture. My own view of scripture is that it is, with very few exceptions, mostly oracular in nature. In this I mean not that it is all prophetic, but that it is used as a kind of mirror of spiritual contemplation, where the individual or community seeks the Face of God in the words of past spiritual poets.

You know a person might come to think Luke was using the Septuegint when writing. I suppose that means he was not receiving inerrant words straight from the mind of God. I suppose it might be like having a suspicion that Jesus did not have omniscience.

Or Luke added the phrase about healing the blind because it fits Luke's presentation of the story. Luke was not actually at the synagogue in question to hear you know. After all to Lukes understanding healing the blind is fundamental to Jesus mission and the meaning of the atonement.

Mr Singers comments touched enough curiosity for me that I listened to a youtube presentation by him. His observation about the added line of healing the blind is an introduction to a theme he focuses on. He views the gospels as focusing upon miracles in way that does not fit his Jewish understanding of the messiah. He see the messiah as natural human with a special teaching role. He is disturbed by Christians seeing Jesus as so divine that we cannot be like him.

I found myself thinking that I see Jesus as human and a teacher whose teaching is to open the door to human change to a transformed renewed world , just like Singer sees the messiah. Perhaps there are Christian habits and failures which make cloud the view of Jesus. Should Christians be scared off of trying to be like Jesus because he is so divine? I thought people reasoned that it is obvious we cannot be exactly like Jesus but that does not prevent us from changing to me relative more like him.

I have been under the impression that that the expectation of what Messiah is to be and which scriptures are to describe him is not a settled matter for Jews or anybody else. Singer proposed Hezekiah as a messianic type.That roused a bit curiosity in me causing me to review Kings. A minor observation amused me. Singer amounst other criticisms noted that Paul in speaking of Jesus raised from the dead mentions " in three days according to the scriptures" But he observes such a prediction is not known. Singer thinks Paul is dealing from the bottom of the deck. When I reviewed the Hezekiah material I noticed a little story about the king being ill on the edge of death and prophet Isaiah tells him he will die. But upon leaving Isaiah is inspired to change the message due to Hezekiah earnest entreaty of God. Hezekiah will revive in three days.

I think that is Paul point of reference. Of course that is not a literal prediction or a text which says clearly the messiah will be raised. Paul may be reading an allusion out of the story fitting only because of the importance and messianic like character of the king.

Modern readers do not feel comfortable with that sort of loose reading but as Kishkumen points out exact literal interpretation is not always the most important and used method of reading scripture. Paul himself shows himself comfortable with creating allegory out of scriptures finding meaning only suggested with a stretch by the original. Galatians 4.23 is an example, Paul refers to sons of Abraham and proposes an allegory to further his views about faith and law.

I think this observation weakens Singers complain on this one minor point. It does not eliminate his larger observation that he finds the Gospels to have an Hellenized point of view he finds alien to Jewish understanding