An angry online Mormon wrote:Back in March and April of 2016, various media outlets cited Mr. John Dehlin, who was at the time still a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as expressing his giddy excitement about the new Broadway musical comedy The Book of Mormon:
“I’m super excited,” Dehlin, the founder of Mormon Stories podcasts, told FOX411. “I think this is our Mormon moment. The Jews had ‘Fiddler [on the Roof] ‘and the Catholics had ‘Sound of Music’ and now we have this.”
I thought Mr. Dehlin’s remark extremely silly. But I’m amused to see that, while one purported Latter-day Saint once tried to portray The Book of Mormon as a Latter-day Saint Fiddler on the Roof, some Jews are now supposedly hoping for a Jewish Book of Mormon.
Is this common within Mormonism now? To say that excommunicated Mormons must have not ever really believed in Mormonism? It seems pretty distasteful. And I've seen this particular angry online Mormon speak this way about many of his fellow Mormons - doubting their sincerity. I don't think I've ever come across Catholics disparaging fellow Catholics in this way, or Jews disparaging their fellow Jews.
I wonder why Dowsin’ Dan excluded Robert Lopez credit as a playwright? Weird. And stupid.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Its always been common in Mormonism to say leavers never really were believers. But I don't see that in the quote you offered.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Its always been common in Mormonism to say leavers never really were believers. But I don't see that in the quote you offered.
Setting aside the question of whether the apparent direct quote exists, it is a common "no true Scotsman"-type of reaction. I'm sure that many of us on this board have had such post hoc reasoning aimed at us.
My reply has been to ask exactly when it became clear that I was not a true believer, because many people who knew me well, including my priesthood leaders, clearly seemed to be convinced that I was one. Does that perhaps indicate that my leaders were lacking in "true" inspiration?
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details. Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Its always been common in Mormonism to say leavers never really were believers. But I don't see that in the quote you offered.
Setting aside the question of whether the apparent direct quote exists, it is a common "no true Scotsman"-type of reaction. I'm sure that many of us on this board have had such post hoc reasoning aimed at us.
My reply has been to ask exactly when it became clear that I was not a true believer, because many people who knew me well, including my priesthood leaders, clearly seemed to be convinced that I was one. Does that perhaps indicate that my leaders were lacking in "true" inspiration?
I had an old roommate after college reach out to me after he heard of my own faithless direction. He asked, "did you even believe back when we were rum-mates?" hinting at the notion that as a leaver I likely never really believed enough. He added something like, "You always brought up weird ideas and questions, but I didn't think you didn't believe."
After hearing I left he assumed, as Mormons are taught, I was never really a believer. Truth is I wish I had recognized the problems and left way sooner. But you know...life moves at its own pace. I'm happy enough how things have turned out. His questioning seemed par for the course at the time.
Part of me wonders if I "really" believed. I don't know. I felt like I did...but I know I had questions and concerns. I know I wondered if everything was much different than what mromonism taught.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Setting aside the question of whether the apparent direct quote exists, it is a common "no true Scotsman"-type of reaction. I'm sure that many of us on this board have had such post hoc reasoning aimed at us.
My reply has been to ask exactly when it became clear that I was not a true believer, because many people who knew me well, including my priesthood leaders, clearly seemed to be convinced that I was one. Does that perhaps indicate that my leaders were lacking in "true" inspiration?
I had an old roommate after college reach out to me after he heard of my own faithless direction. He asked, "did you even believe back when we were rum-mates?" hinting at the notion that as a leaver I likely never really believed enough. He added something like, "You always brought up weird ideas and questions, but I didn't think you didn't believe."
After hearing I left he assumed, as Mormons are taught, I was never really a believer. Truth is I wish I had recognized the problems and left way sooner. But you know...life moves at its own pace. I'm happy enough how things have turned out. His questioning seemed par for the course at the time.
Part of me wonders if I "really" believed. I don't know. I felt like I did...but I know I had questions and concerns. I know I wondered if everything was much different than what mromonism taught.
Some of your experience more or less mirrors mine. The worst that most people could have said about me was that I asked a lot of questions - in fact I was asked more than once to keep my questions to myself.
However, my various bishops and other leaders never questioned my state of belief. I've never really had close friends, throughout my entire life, but I did have a frank enough relationship with a couple of church members that we could have asked each other about "true" beliefs. Never happened.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details. Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Its always been common in Mormonism to say leavers never really were believers. But I don't see that in the quote you offered.
Setting aside the question of whether the apparent direct quote exists, it is a common "no true Scotsman"-type of reaction. I'm sure that many of us on this board have had such post hoc reasoning aimed at us.
My reply has been to ask exactly when it became clear that I was not a true believer, because many people who knew me well, including my priesthood leaders, clearly seemed to be convinced that I was one. Does that perhaps indicate that my leaders were lacking in "true" inspiration?
The Scotsman fallacy is a necessary and needed reaction. Without it a member instead has to come to grips with the alternative: A person who was once a stalwart believer has now left.
I had a few long conversations with the EQ president in my ward, a person that I still consider a good friend, after my departure primarily about my reasoning but also about the shock it caused him. He shared that it was very difficult for him to come to terms as he had always viewed me as a strong member that he could depend on and turn to within the gospel. Me leaving with no obvious reasons why (save the ones I had given him) left him with some heavy cognitive dissonance. He admitted that it made him question his writing off of other members leaving. Perhaps he had been too quick to assume about their reasoning and he had some real searching to do about his narratives on that front.
Most folks, whether we are talking about faithful LDS or any other tribal group, aren't self aware enough or prepared to have those kinds of conversations. It is so much easier to hand wave the problem away. And make no mistake we're all susceptible to it. I've caught myself writing someone off because of a disagreeance of beliefs before so this is just another great reminder to check my assumptions about others at the door.
He/Him
“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
― Xenophon
