But what if Mormonism were true?

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dastardly stem
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But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by dastardly stem »

In another thread, our good friend KevinSim suggested the Church is better off without many of it's members, and is better off, perhaps, without former members (he descirbes one as an example).
I have a friend up in Seattle who left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints back in the 1980s. My friend has a lot of bizarre ideas, and in many ways his life has gone to pot since he left the Church. I really think the Church is better off without him. Similarly, if people feel so strongly that vaccinations are dangerous that they're willing to ignore Russell Nelson's advice over them, and are concluding that because of that advice Nelson must be a fallen prophet, then again the Church is better off without them.
This does support the pull out your metaphorical muskets and end many of our members idea that a dear prophet, seer, and revelator has advocated. So surely in the context of Mormonism it makes sense. But you'd hope religions had more of a desire to accommodate people.

I thought "bizarre ideas" would have to include things like defending polygamy, but apparently there is something more bizarre. You would think if Mormonism were true it should learn to make room for many to all people--not try and find excuses to refuse people and push people out. But perhaps Holland, KevinSim and many others have taken some good notes from the larger Christian environment which has for centuries played the game of excluding people for not being real Christians or murdering them for not believing right.

In an ideal world if a religion were true, you'd think it'd open up its net wide capturing all so as they got involved they'd clearly see the bright hope and goodness of the religion. Bu religion tends to be too insecure for my tastes. That insecurity often gets magnified if one asks questions or offers challenges to dogma. I don't want to carry on too much down this road because this is what turns me off most about religion, or maybe second most. This idea that questions are settled and questions raised with the understanding ultimately we can't know are treated as if they are answered magically and then its claimed we do know. Religion is just so boring in that sense.

But what comes to my mind every so often is the question of what if Mormonism were true? I don't see how it could be in the sense of everything it teaches or preaches as worthy belief is true...but generally or loosely. What if there are in our vast universe other planets inhabited by life, and it just so happens God is on one of them? That doesn't' necessarily make Mormonism true, but if that were the case, its a something. It's a prediction made by Mormonism that would be true(?).

Let's say in this framework of things, the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit and as such can zoom or as far as our imagination can take it, transport from place to place. He moves so quickly time slows down, so he's able to visit each person multiple times a day, gathering data and sending it back to God's grand database of love, to be filtered and queried for inspection.

Let's say our bodies do have a spirit inside them, or tied to them, and when our bodies die our material spirits continue our consciousness, and we are given new bodies fashioned after our mortal ones. It may be that we cease to exist in billions of years, but for all intents and purposes that's pretty much eternity to our mortal minds anyway.

So we have God, who is one of billions of other gods, who are all gods of many billions of others. Some relatively few of us get our own planets, perhaps in this ever-expanding universe. others are housed on God's or Jesus' planets, while most others get sent to the satan planets to suffer, toil, gnash teeth and pout for, you know, "eternity".

None of these assumptions would suggest things like Mormonism's racism or homphobia, the Book of Abraham, and polygamy are true, I guess. The Book of Mormon may have no legit historicity to it. My own favorite, Jesus may never have really lived. So in a sense, Mormonism still wouldn't be true. But, you know, vaguely, loosely, the religion had some truth to it...as much as can be expected in this limited realm we find outselves in.

I suppose in this conception I'm denying that many of the religion's truth claims are true, becaue, I mean, they're dumb. But I suppose loosely the religion, as could be the case for any of them, does present something conceptually loosely true.

If true, it sure makes what would be reality a bit lame. Maybe boring or mechanical too. Many billions upon billions upon billions getting sorted as one would sort beans, at some point...and we just continue on.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

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I’ve sometimes wondered what the eschatological end game is for Mormonism. Like. Beyond making spirits and colonizing planets. Is there a multiverse war that needs Jehovian troops? Is there a need for a workforce to combat heat death, vacuum decay, or an A.I. resistance movement? What’s the point to all of it beyond infinite recursion?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:45 pm
I’ve sometimes wondered what the eschatological end game is for Mormonism. Like. Beyond making spirits and colonizing planets. Is there a multiverse war that needs Jehovian troops? Is there a need for a workforce to combat heat death, vacuum decay, or an A.I. resistance movement? What’s the point to all of it beyond infinite recursion?

- Doc
You don’t want to eat green jello at thanksgiving with a few billion of your family members for trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions and trillions of years?

If that doesn’t entice you, how about the endless celestial sex with your ever-teen plural wives?
dastardly stem
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:45 pm
I’ve sometimes wondered what the eschatological end game is for Mormonism. Like. Beyond making spirits and colonizing planets. Is there a multiverse war that needs Jehovian troops? Is there a need for a workforce to combat heat death, vacuum decay, or an A.I. resistance movement? What’s the point to all of it beyond infinite recursion?

- Doc
Yeah...You have to wonder....

Let's rough estimate. for this earth alone, God and his wives made 150 billion (rough estimate) spirit babies. I don't care if they just magically formed them from other material or actually humped and made them on this conception. But roughly that. But let's say God's dad, also exalted 144,000 other gods. So God is 1 of 144,000 each of which, we might assume, made 150 billion spirit babies too. But God's God did something similar in numbers. If we tried to make that work infinitely then space would be filled up...I suppose. So let's say this process actually started 14 billion years ago, and we might not be all that many Gods down the chain. But, the point is we're talking scales that are essentially meaningless to us in terms of individuals. What would be God's joy if he made 150 billion, tossed out 50 billion right off the bat because they tried to fight him for acting like a dick and then after this little process is over some relatively few get some exalted joy, but again this may be happening for tens of thousands, or maybe hundreds of thousands or million or billions of other God groupings, doing the same thing?

As God you live on a planet with your celestial but not exalted followers. you Terrestrial and telestial are off doing their own suffering during their existence and many billions more are spirit zooming around the universe wreaking havoc while suffering some sort of burning torture as well.

I'm sure hoping Mormons are right or most right, when it comes to our western religions. Sounds fun. When God tells me it'd been better if I weren't born, and I could be zooming around in my spirit body instead of melting away in a telestial realm, well, maybe it'll all be worth it.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Marcus
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by Marcus »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:25 pm
In another thread, our good friend KevinSim suggested the Church is better off without many of it's members, and is better off, perhaps, without former members (he descirbes one as an example).
I have a friend up in Seattle who left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints back in the 1980s. My friend has a lot of bizarre ideas, and in many ways his life has gone to pot since he left the Church. I really think the Church is better off without him. Similarly, if people feel so strongly that vaccinations are dangerous that they're willing to ignore Russell Nelson's advice over them, and are concluding that because of that advice Nelson must be a fallen prophet, then again the Church is better off without them.
This does support the pull out your metaphorical muskets and end many of our members idea that a dear prophet, seer, and revelator has advocated. So surely in the context of Mormonism it makes sense. But you'd hope religions had more of a desire to accommodate people.

I thought "bizarre ideas" would have to include things like defending polygamy, but apparently there is something more bizarre….
You’d be surprised what seems “bizarre.” Activities for children, if not organized by the lds church, are also completely off the table, apparently. Because, you know, of how bizarre playing with a non-lds child is, or participating in non-lds sports, music, reading, clubs, or crafts. Etc.

Check out this thread…
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:29 am
The first and third Wednesday of each month my grandson (who my wife and I are raising) enjoys going to Activity Day for Boys, an hour of playing games in our church's cultural hall with a dozen boys roughly his age, facilitated by two adults who do a pretty good job of finding fun things for them to do. Do atheists have programs like this for their young children?
[insert many, many posts, documenting many children’s activities not related to religion, which are available to all, atheists and non-atheists alike, including any and all humans who are or are not associated with either label…]

And then….
KevinSim wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 5:40 pm
… If I ever leave the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (ha ha), I will have plenty of ideas for activities to keep my grandson occupied!
:roll:

Even if it were true, it still wouldn’t be a way I would like to live.
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by malkie »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:45 pm
I’ve sometimes wondered what the eschatological end game is for Mormonism. Like. Beyond making spirits and colonizing planets. Is there a multiverse war that needs Jehovian troops? Is there a need for a workforce to combat heat death, vacuum decay, or an A.I. resistance movement? What’s the point to all of it beyond infinite recursion?

- Doc
The "cast out" ones get to combat heat death etc as incarnations (inspirinations?) of Maxwell's demon!
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Well, whatever happens to all those spirits and corporeal beings must happen in a different dimension or universe. I recently dipped into some youtube videos of scientists talking about grabby aliens, and assuming Elohim is a Type-IV and Type-VI-minus civilization we would’ve seen them all over the place, and there’s nothing (that we can see or detect). If god, with all them babies, were to exist in this universe it’d be entirely colonized. If god exists outside of this universe, then whatever, we’re back to nonsense rules and arbitrary judgements that any reasonable person would reject.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Marcus
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by Marcus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:28 pm
Well, whatever happens to all those spirits and corporeal beings must happen in a different dimension or universe. I recently dipped into some youtube videos of scientists talking about grabby aliens, and assuming Elohim is a Type-IV and Type-VI-minus civilization we would’ve seen them all over the place, and there’s nothing (that we can see or detect). If god, with all them babies, were to exist in this universe it’d be entirely colonized. If god exists outside of this universe, then whatever, we’re back to nonsense rules and arbitrary judgements that any reasonable person would reject.

- Doc
No wonder alternate universes are so appealing to some.
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by BeNotDeceived »

If it were, the deity that created all of this would have some serious 'splainin' to do. :lol: :D
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Re: But what if Mormonism were true?

Post by Gadianton »

Kev is psychologically just trying to get even with people. "Go ahead and leave, we are better off without you!" You can use that logic down to the last member. In reality, if the Church is true, God, the head of the church, is all powerful and controls every atom in the physical universe. God doesn't need any of us including kev-sim. Understanding that God is all-powerful, why does he think the Church needs him?

However, while God obviously doesn't need us, as a member, you're supposed to believe the stakes are high. You're still supposed to look at life as one of real material consequence where what you do and what everybody else does matters. And one of the most important principles in the gospel view of the world is that the worth of a soul is great.

A mission president I had gave some memorable talks. I cited one a few weeks ago, where he summarized Lehi in the Desert as if it were his own work. As a talk, it was utterly fantastic. Another talk he gave began with a Reader's Digest story about a person who had gotten lost by a river bank and there were search teams and helicopters, and he really ratcheted up the drama, with the scale of the search exploding until they finally saved this person. The point was that no expense was spared to save a life. And that was how we as missionaries were supposed to look at our work.

In my life in the Church, I have never heard anything expressed but sorrow over the lost sheep. As big of jerks as we know the Brethren really are, they play their role by the numbers -- even in an excommunication, it's supposedly with great sorrow that they administer the punishment. And it's supposed to be an opportunity for healing. That "the Church is better off" without any person is something I never, ever heard, until I met the Mopologists on the Internet.

It's the Mopologists who have fabricated this dark gospel vista where the fallen are the mortal enemies of the faithful and fit only for derision. The Mopologists' reimagining of the Prodigal Son would be something like, "Lock the gates, and if he comes back, release the dogs, we don't have bread for traitors".

It's kind of crazy how mopologist culture and mission culture are so different, because as missionaries, you're constantly dealing with insults and rejection but whereas as a missionary you try to feel sorrowful for those souls who reject the message, even unto wetting your pillow with tears at night, as a mopologist you feel resentment or anger or you feel nothing - couldn't care less. I recall a year or two after being back from a mission, a fellow missionary at the Y who kept in contact with folks halfway round the world asked me to write a letter to a member I was close to as he'd left the Church, ditched his family and friends and girlfriend and graduate school and left the country. I felt terrible about this and it was a great honor to write that letter and bear my testimony and let him know he was needed.

One possible explanation for the difference is that mopologetics selects for mean and angry people. I think Kev is all right, but it's possible that years of participating online with mopologists has afforded him ways to psychologically get even with people and he's slipping into that role unaware. At any rate, he's damned either way. If he insists on the reductionist perspective how does he justify his own value? If he opts for the gospel perspective, he's in need of repentance.
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