BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

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sansfoy
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by sansfoy »

wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:44 am
The purpose for Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society class attendance, as well as Come Follow Me home-centered and church assisted program, and even temple attendance, is to help us become our very best selves. . .

Thanks, Wade Englund
Nah, it's just to keep you busy swimming endless laps in a 15 foot long swimming pool until finally, at the end of your days, you will drag yourself into the shallow side to die, having never done much with your life other than paddle back and forth endlessly so your leaders could watch you struggle and feel good about themselves, all the while berating you whenever you dared grab onto the side to catch a breather.

But if that's how you want to spend your life, who am I to say no?
drumdude
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by drumdude »

wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:44 am
drumdude wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:17 am


I love RFM’s take on this. The church is stuck teaching kindergarten over and over. RFM, and I, and many others have graduated beyond kindergarten.

You can think it’s beautiful to repeat kindergarten over and over. You may even find it profound to repeat the alphabet song every Sunday for 79 years. But as someone who has graduated, all I can say is that I am very glad that I am no longer stuck in kindergarten.

Daniel Peterson, by the way, has admitted multiple times that he brings a book to read during church. Because he also has graduated kindergarten, he just doesn’t want to make a big deal about it.
I prefer a sports analogy. The fundamentals of basketball are taught to grade school aged kids at summer camps and/or in junior high PE classes. However, they are also taught and are re-enforced and practiced over and over again as the kids graduate and move on into high school and collegiate play. And, the fundamentals continue to be taught and retaught and practiced over and over again even after graduating and athletes going on to play in the NBA.

Granted, there are higher principles taught and more advanced basketball skills picked up along the way, just as the same is true with the church when moving from primary to youth classes to adult gospel doctrine to temple instruction.

Yet, as explained in another thread, what the critic fail to grasp, is that the learning and gaining in knowledge and understanding and skills, is but a part of the process, and one of several means to an end. The purpose for Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society class attendance, as well as Come Follow Me home-centered and church assisted program, and even temple attendance, is to help us become our very best selves, and bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him--not unlike the purpose of basketball instruction, practice, and coaching at all levels, is designed to help athletes become their very best at basketball, and work to becoming like Michael Jordan.

Thanks, Wade Englund
The highest teaching ends up being some secret handshakes in what was to me a very disconcerting cult ritual.

Including everyone gathered in a circle chanting a phrase in a non-language and a threat against me if I should ever talk about it.

If that’s the road to becoming Michael Jordan, I’m the queen of England.
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by wenglund »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:46 pm
Wade wrote:Response: A distinction should be drawn between what is considered as canonized revelation as differentiated from study and learning aids that are included in bounded copies of the canonized revelations. The Lectures on Faith, like footnotes, dictionaries, concordances, etc. have not been considered as revelation. As such, their inclusion or exclusion within the bound copies of canonized revelations does not impact the revelations, themselves, nor does it require a vote by the members of the church. Such decisions can be made by church leaders and committees. Please see our good friends at FAIR: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... th/Removed
Pure poppycock... I don't trust your source. Yes I shall look at it, it will make a terrific video response to their mangling the context or leaving stuff out in order to arrive at faith promoting information as you are attempting to do here, ineffectively.
Unwarranted and premature dismissal. I actually drew from a variety of sources, but posted only the FAIR response for purposes of brevity and because you helped form the organization. If you don't trust FAIR, then please see also the following:

BYU Religious Studies Center, the study of the Lectures on Faith: https://rsc.byu.edu/book/lectures-faith ... erspective
Particularly the chapter on, a historical Perspective: https://rsc.byu.edu/lectures-faith-hist ... ures-faith

See also the Encyclopedia on Mormonism, Lectures on Faith: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Lectures_on_Faith

See also the Church's website, Lectures on Faith: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... h?lang=eng

And, see also the Interpreter Foundation podcast with Noel Reynolds: https://interpreterfoundation.org/ldsp- ... -reynolds/

Thanks, Wade Englund
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by wenglund »

malkie wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:23 pm
Richard S. Van Wagoner, Steven C. Walker and Allen D. Roberts wrote:THE "LECTURES ON FAITH," seven 1834—35 lessons on theology and doctrine
prepared for the '&hool of the Elders" in Kirtland, Ohio, were canonized in
the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants by official vote of the Church.
In the preface of that volume, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon,
and Frederick G. Williams — then the First Presidency — specifically justified
the inclusion of the Lectures:
  • We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the fol-
    lowing volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items Of the
    religion which we have professed to believe.
    The first part Of the will found to contain a eries Of Lectures as delivered
    before a theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the
    important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.
    We do not present this little volume with any Other expectation than that we are to
    called to answer to every principle advanced.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/45225561#m ... b_contents
The "justification" listed above is in the preface to the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, and contains no indication that the Lectures were received as revelation.

Granted, the title page for the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants does state "From the revelations of God."

And, the first publication of the lectures (1 and 2) in the Messenger and Advocate in May of 1835, was introduced as follows:
  • The following are two short lectures which were delivered before a Theological class, in this place last winter. These lectures are being compiled and arranged with other documents of instruction and regulation for the church, titled “Doctrine and Covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” &c. It may be well, for the information of the churches abroad, to say, that this book will contain the important revelations on doctrine and church government now extant, and will, we trust, give them a perfect understanding of the doctrine believed by this society. Such a work has long been called for, and if we are prospered a few weeks, shall have this volume ready for distribution. A full detail of its contents will be given hereafter.

    In giving the following lectures we have thought best to insert the catechism, that the reader may fully understand the manner in which this science was taught. It was found, that by annexing a catechism to the lectures as they were presented, the class made greater progress than otherwise; and in consequence of the additional scriptural proofs, it was preserved in compiling
However, Larry Dahl addresses these and other issues in the seminal study on the Lectures of Faith which he co-authored with Charles D. Tate, Jr:

https://rsc.byu.edu/lectures-faith-hist ... ures-faith

It should be noted that: Between 1835 and 1921 the Lectures were printed in almost all of the English language editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, and in many, but not all non-English editions." (ibid. emphasis mine) Evidently, during the period before the decision was made to exclude the Lectures from the D&C, there were editions of the D&C which did not include the Lectures. And, as Larry goes on to point out, there were several times over the intervening years where the Lectures were published on their own.

To my knowledge, the pre-1921 exclusions of the Lectures in some printings of the D&C, and the separate publication of the Lectures, did not require a vote of the saints, but was an editorial decision by the select leaders of the Church. This should tell us something.

Thanks, Wade Englund
wenglund
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by wenglund »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:14 am
The highest teaching ends up being some secret handshakes in what was to me a very disconcerting cult ritual.

Including everyone gathered in a circle chanting a phrase in a non-language and a threat against me if I should ever talk about it.

If that’s the road to becoming Michael Jordan, I’m the queen of England.
Your outdated and overly simplistic grasp of the endowment merely explains, in part, why you took the road to spiritual failure and dropping out.

To each their own.

Thanks, Wade Englund
Marcus
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Marcus »

wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:52 am
…you took the road to spiritual failure and drop[ped] out.

To each their own….
Ah, the “Christlike” nature of some very unchristian Mormons is a sight to see, is it not?
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Shulem »

wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:41 am
The "justification" listed above is in the preface to the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, and contains no indication that the Lectures were received as revelation.

Granted, the title page for the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants does state "From the revelations of God."

A stupid man. What an idiot. Let him drown.

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Shulem
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:22 am
wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:52 am
…you took the road to spiritual failure and drop[ped] out.

To each their own….
Ah, the “Christlike” nature of some very unchristian Mormons is a sight to see, is it not?

Wade's brain is stuck in Mormon childhood. He never will grow up.
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Shulem
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Shulem »

wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:52 am
Your outdated and overly simplistic grasp of the endowment merely explains, in part, why you took the road to spiritual failure and dropping out.

To each their own.

Thanks, Wade Englund

No, what's outdated is the evil penalties the Church removed from the cult ritual.

The penalties were pure evil. The removal of them without explanation is also evil.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

sansfoy wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:57 am
wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:44 am
The purpose for Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society class attendance, as well as Come Follow Me home-centered and church assisted program, and even temple attendance, is to help us become our very best selves. . .

Thanks, Wade Englund
Nah, it's just to keep you busy swimming endless laps in a 15 foot long swimming pool until finally, at the end of your days, you will drag yourself into the shallow side to die, having never done much with your life other than paddle back and forth endlessly so your leaders could watch you struggle and feel good about themselves, all the while berating you whenever you dared grab onto the side to catch a breather.

But if that's how you want to spend your life, who am I to say no?
That’s a very apt analogy. For me, Mormonism is a type of religious Animal Farm, and we’ve been blessed to have Squealer on the board lately pushing his ridiculousness. Unfortunately for him, he’s trying to sell the virtue of being a Boxer. We unyoked ourselves from Napoleon Brighamite Mormonism and are now doing our own thing. by the way, Squealer, the farm has become a corporate sole, so Russell M. Nelson-Napoleon’s takeover is complete. He literally owns it all. You’re working for him. For free. Dummy.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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