View of the Hebrews

[Doctor Steuss]

For example, it’s not a big surprise to anyone that masonry was used as a template as the temple endowment was organized and written. Templates for organization and inspiration saturated Joseph’s world. But so much was missing.

According to Joseph, it wasn't a template. Masonry was taken from the Priesthood. He apparently believed the myth that Freemasonry originated with Solomon's temple.

Unfortunately, God, as seems to be His modus operandi with Mormon prophets, didn't feel the need to correct him.

[MG 2.0]

For example, it’s not a big surprise to anyone that masonry was used as a template as the temple endowment was organized and written. Templates for organization and inspiration saturated Joseph’s world. But so much was missing.

According to Joseph, it wasn't a template. Masonry was taken from the Priesthood. He apparently believed the myth that Freemasonry originated with Solomon's temple.

Unfortunately, God, as seems to be His modus operandi with Mormon prophets, didn't feel the need to correct him.

Hi Steuss,
As with many things there are multiple ways of viewing the ‘picture’, so to speak. The truth if is to be found often resides in the middle somewhere rather than taking extreme positions one way or the other. Of course there are exceptions.

Scholar Ben Spackman wrote, “Aspects of revelation…will strongly reflect their environment, and are a necessary part of that revelation, not a detriment to its revelatory quality. Environmental similarities may or may not indicate ‘borrowing’ or ‘remixing,’ but they don’t automatically preclude revelation.”
For example, you already know that the law of circumcision was given to Abraham as a sign or token of the Abrahamic covenant. But what you might not know is that Abraham was not the first person to practice circumcision. It already existed, for example, in Egypt. It’s probably not a coincidence that circumcision was implemented after Abraham’s visit to Egypt. God takes something familiar to Abraham and adapts it for another purpose. And that’s absolutely fine.
He did the same thing with the rainbow after the flood. It’s repurposed as a “token” of a covenant between Him and Noah. In the words of Spackman, “Jesus transformed water into wine. He didn’t produce it ex nihilo,” or out of nothing.
So, in review, why are there similarities between Masonry and our temple endowment? It could be that some elements of Masonry are based on ancient temple practices that God inspired Joseph to include. It may also be that God took some elements of Masonry and repurposed them for the endowment. And there are many people who think it’s a mixture of all of those possibilities, myself included. I think both traditions reflect elements of ancient Christianity, and I also think that Freemasonry helped Joseph give presentational and ritual scaffolding to the promises we make in the temple.

Knowing that similarities can be found between what was existent in Joseph’s day and what came from his interaction with that milieu is an interesting course of study. Looking at how these interactions may have had interplay with revelation from God makes things even more interesting. This is the path that is usually taken by scholars that are faithful members of the church.

And of course you know they have found many interesting connections that seem to show something above and beyond the base material Joseph may have come in contact with. ‘May’ being the operative word.

Regards,
MG

[dastardly stem]

I' still say its quite a feat for an uneducated, for the most part, Joseph to write the book.

I would agree.

As far as the milieu of Joseph Smith’s world playing a part in the restoration I wouldn’t disagree. Some here on this board were around when The Worlds of Joseph Smith: A Bicentennial Conference at the Library of Congress was held years ago. Some of the presentations dealt with just this subject.

For example, it’s not a big surprise to anyone that masonry was used as a template as the temple endowment was organized and written. Templates for organization and inspiration saturated Joseph’s world. But so much was missing.

That’s where Joseph’s inspired inquiries of the Lord came into play as God revealed elements of the restoration to Joseph. Joseph had the schema of some of the lost/corrupted truths available to him as he then added line upon line to the scaffolding that was already in place.

Joseph didn’t grow up in a vacuum.

Personally, I think this is the way God works. He adds to what is already there and available to some extent.

Regards,
MG

Either that or if there's no God, as what seems more reasonable, there's no weird explanation to create, as believer tend to do.

[sock puppet]

Knowing that similarities can be found between what was existent in Joseph’s day and what came from his interaction with that milieu is an interesting course of study. Looking at how these interactions may have had interplay with revelation from God makes things even more interesting. This is the path that is usually taken by scholars that are faithful members of the church.

And of course you know they have found many interesting connections that seem to show something above and beyond the base material Joseph may have come in contact with. ‘May’ being the operative word.

Regards,
MG

So, MG. If like you I were convinced that there is a god and that he imparted certain "truths" to Joseph Smith, I would be interested in those. Nevertheless, I would not be interested in whatever Joseph Smith added to, filled-in in gaps of, etc. god's "truths." I.e., I would not be interested in what milieu of circumstances Joseph Smith came out of, or how those contributed to the Joseph Smith additions to god's "truths."

So, my question then is, how do separate the wheat (god's "truths") from the chaff (Joseph Smith's additions), so that you know which ones need to be followed and which ones are just a man's asschat?

[Rick Grunder]

Several great comments in this thread! I find it heartening to see careful nuance and maturity of approach.

In terms of specifics, I was particularly struck by Doctor Steuss’ observation that “It wasn't so much that VOH [View of the Hebrews] was novel in any way, it was more-so that VOH took all of the prevalent stories and ideas, and compiled them into a single source with added biblical cross-referencing.”

That has certainly been my impression, over the years. Ethan Smith’s Isaiah slant may well have impressed Joseph Smith (through Oliver Cowdery? - or more subtle avenues?), even if it did put a few of us to sleep during early-morning seminary classes when we got to 2 Nephi.

Here are my entries on the two editions of View of the Hebrews, if anyone is interested:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/parallels/mp398-399.pdf

[MG 2.0]

Knowing that similarities can be found between what was existent in Joseph’s day and what came from his interaction with that milieu is an interesting course of study. Looking at how these interactions may have had interplay with revelation from God makes things even more interesting. This is the path that is usually taken by scholars that are faithful members of the church.

And of course you know they have found many interesting connections that seem to show something above and beyond the base material Joseph may have come in contact with. ‘May’ being the operative word.

Regards,
MG

So, MG. If like you I were convinced that there is a god and that he imparted certain "truths" to Joseph Smith, I would be interested in those. Nevertheless, I would not be interested in whatever Joseph Smith added to, filled-in in gaps of, etc. god's "truths." I.e., I would not be interested in what milieu of circumstances Joseph Smith came out of, or how those contributed to the Joseph Smith additions to god's "truths."

So, my question then is, how do separate the wheat (god's "truths") from the chaff (Joseph Smith's additions), so that you know which ones need to be followed and which ones are just a man's asschat?

I think the answer to this question can only be determined on an individual basis. For me I would look at the greater whole and determine whether or not the fruit is good.

Of course, that determination will vary from person to person depending on one’s own moral/spiritual/intellectual makeup.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I would agree.

As far as the milieu of Joseph Smith’s world playing a part in the restoration I wouldn’t disagree. Some here on this board were around when The Worlds of Joseph Smith: A Bicentennial Conference at the Library of Congress was held years ago. Some of the presentations dealt with just this subject.

For example, it’s not a big surprise to anyone that masonry was used as a template as the temple endowment was organized and written. Templates for organization and inspiration saturated Joseph’s world. But so much was missing.

That’s where Joseph’s inspired inquiries of the Lord came into play as God revealed elements of the restoration to Joseph. Joseph had the schema of some of the lost/corrupted truths available to him as he then added line upon line to the scaffolding that was already in place.

Joseph didn’t grow up in a vacuum.

Personally, I think this is the way God works. He adds to what is already there and available to some extent.

Regards,
MG

Either that or if there's no God, as what seems more reasonable, there's no weird explanation to create, as believer tend to do.

And that is a reasonable position to take in your view. Other points of view, of course, will vary.

Just out of interest, do you include the anthropic principle in your list of “weird explanations”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

This board has been down this path before so I’m not interested in debating the anthropic principle. I am simply asking a yes/no question.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

So, MG. If like you I were convinced that there is a god and that he imparted certain "truths" to Joseph Smith, I would be interested in those. Nevertheless, I would not be interested in whatever Joseph Smith added to, filled-in in gaps of, etc. god's "truths." I.e., I would not be interested in what milieu of circumstances Joseph Smith came out of, or how those contributed to the Joseph Smith additions to god's "truths."

So, my question then is, how do separate the wheat (god's "truths") from the chaff (Joseph Smith's additions), so that you know which ones need to be followed and which ones are just a man's asschat?

I think the answer to this question can only be determined on an individual basis. For me I would look at the greater whole and determine whether or not the fruit is good.

Of course, that determination will vary from person to person depending on one’s own moral/spiritual/intellectual makeup.

Regards,
MG

If I look at the fruits, the LDS church comes up way short by comparison to several other organizations.

A couple of examples. Feeding America, the Chicago-based umbrella that helps supply a network of more than 200 U.S. regional and local food banks. It posted $4.06 billion in donations, a 47% increase in its two fiscal years overlapping the pandemic. Much of that haul reflects donated food from large corporations, but it also received cash from more than 750,000 individual donors, reflecting a pandemic heightened awareness of food insecurity in the U.S. Forbes magazine, 12.13.2022. 99% charitable commitement. By contrast, with 16.8m members, the LDS church only musters about $1b annually, according to the SL Tribune, 9.14.2022. The Deseret News put the amount at $906m in 2021. 5.13.2022, citing the LDS Church's own report, "Caring for Those in Need: 2021 Annual Report of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Fewer individual donors, more than 4x the charitable output.

Teen suicide rates in the U.S. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/666 ... ths-in-us/) are 10.6 per 100,000. The four states with the highest percentage of Mormons in its population: Utah's (55%)? 19.4/100,000. Idaho's (19%)? 25.2/100,000. Wyoming (9%)? 18/100,000 And Arizona (5%)? 14.3.

Massachusetts and New Jersey have the highest concentractions of Catholics, 34% each, yet have 5/100,000 and 6.2/100,000 teen suicide rates, respectively.

For baptists, 60% of the Mississippi population is baptist, its teen suicide rate: 13.9/100,000. 56% of the people in Arkansas are baptist, its teen suicide rate: also 13.9/100,000. 55% of the people in Louisiana are baptist, its teen suicide rate: 10.8/100,000.

By their fruits ye shall know them. By their fruits, Mormonism is deficient. By your invoked standard, MG 2.0, Mormonism is a big fail.

Why doesn't Mormon God's organization yield the best, most fruits?

[MG 2.0]

Why doesn't Mormon God's organization yield the best, most fruits?

The work of the church is salvific. In that arena the fruits are worth more than money and wealth.

The Gospel/Christ redeems.

Money and works that do good are part of that process.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

I think the answer to this question can only be determined on an individual basis. For me I would look at the greater whole and determine whether or not the fruit is good.

Of course, that determination will vary from person to person depending on one’s own moral/spiritual/intellectual makeup.

Regards,
MG

Good point, tolerance to spoiled fruit varies from person to person. What is not acceptable to Kroger may be perfectly fine to fruit salesmen looking to offload their products.