View of the Hebrews

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: View of the Hebrews

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Rick Grunder wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 4:14 am
Several great comments in this thread! I find it heartening to see careful nuance and maturity of approach.

In terms of specifics, I was particularly struck by Doctor Steuss’ observation that “It wasn't so much that VOH [View of the Hebrews] was novel in any way, it was more-so that VOH took all of the prevalent stories and ideas, and compiled them into a single source with added biblical cross-referencing.”

That has certainly been my impression, over the years. Ethan Smith’s Isaiah slant may well have impressed Joseph Smith (through Oliver Cowdery? - or more subtle avenues?), even if it did put a few of us to sleep during early-morning seminary classes when we got to 2 Nephi.

Here are my entries on the two editions of View of the Hebrews, if anyone is interested:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/parallels/mp398-399.pdf
For anyone who is curious, I believe this is the money shot:
Elder B. H. Roberts of the Mormon First Council of the Seventy exhibited considerable candor and integrity in his research of this book (in his Studies of the Book of Mormon, which was withheld for decades and finally published by the University of Illinois Press in 1985).

"Can there be any doubt," asked Roberts, but what the things said in Ethan Smith's book, on the matter of "Urim and Thummim," "breast plates," and "curious stones" and "attchments [sic] to breast plates" - all published from eight to five years before the Book of Mormon was, are sufficient to suggest the Urim and Thummim as described by Joseph Smith?
[Roberts, 208]

It is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes them so serious a menace to Joseph Smith's story of the Book of Mormon's origin. [Roberts, 240]
My apologies to Mr. Grunder if I diminished his thoughts.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Zosimus
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Re: View of the Hebrews

Post by Zosimus »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:33 am
I wondered where the chronologically impossible claim that Hyrum knew Ethan and Solomon came from
Moksha wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:15 pm
Cohorts at Dartmouth along with Solomon Spaulding's nephew.
Having chased this thread before, there are some notes worth mentioning.

Richard Behrens, author of Dartmouth Arminianism And Its Impact on Hyrum Smith And the Smith Family, wrote this review of View of the Hebrews on Amazon:
The principle source for View of the Hebrews was his Professor John Smith at Dartmouth. Professor Smith's Natural Philosophy lectures completed in 1780 provide the peopling of America migration schemes and his Theology lectures prepared between 1787 and 1809 provide the theological reasoning. Though it is not recorded whether he revisited the peopling of America theme after 1780, he did articulate the Darmouth Arminian Theology that parallels the Book of Mormon and early Mormon Doctrine quite closely and is the primary source for View of the Hebrews.

These theology lectures were not directly available to Solomon Spaulding who graduated in 1785 and only the Old Testament lectures were directly availble to Ethan Smith who graduated in 1790 and later lectures were available indirectly through Ethan's son Lyndon who attended Dartmouth from 1813-17. Since Solomon Spaulding completed Manuscript Found in 1812 and died in 1816, his nephews James Spaulding who attended the Dartmouth Medical School from 1811 to 1813 and Levi Spaulding who attended Dartmouth College from 1811 to 1815 did not have an opportunity to influence Manuscript Found but were available to play the same type of role in bringing awareness of Manuscript Found to the Dartmouth campus that Lyndon Smith played in bringing Ethan Smith's early theology books started in 1811 to Dartmouth when he arrived in 1813.

Joseph Smith would have been only indirectly aware of ideas discussed at Dartmouth through his brother Hyrum, who attended Moor's School between 1811 and 1815 with Indians. Elijah Lyman a Smith in-law, however, maintained continuous contact with Dartmouth from his nearby Brookfield, Vermont, pastorate where he trained Dartmouth graduates to go on missions to the Indians, including Alfred Finney who graduated in 1814 and trained with Elijah Lyman for a year before going to spend the rest of his life with the Cherokee where he set up the Dwight Indian School.
I did verify that Ethan Smith's son Lyndon attended Dartmouth, and that an Oliver Spaulding and a Levi Spaulding were also there in the 1810s. Oliver tragically drowned while he was at Dartmouth. His brother Levi graduated from Dartmouth in 1815 and three years later, departed on a mission to Sri Lanka in one of the first cohorts of American missionaries to serve missions abroad.

The noteworthy element to this story is a statement given by a J. L. Howgate, formerly of Wayne County, NY in the Salt Lake Tribune:
Spaulding had a nephew named King, who got a printer to copy the Spaulding manuscript, and then told Hale, a school-teacher, he could start a new religion and make money out of it, outlining his plan, which was to put some metallic covers and gold clasps on it -- to afterward dig it up -- and with a big flourish proclaim it as a new religion from on high. Hale declined the proposition. Joe Smith then took kindly to the plan, and the two, pretending to have visions, then exhumed the book.
I've searched for more information on J.L. Howgate and his relationship to the Smiths and the Spaulding nephews, or the source of this claim of his. Haven't found anything. But it is interesting that a resident of Wayne County seemed to connect the Spaulding nephews to Joseph Smith and the golden plates.

For what its worth, there was a Hale at Dartmouth/Moors at the same time as Levi Spaulding and Hyrum Smith. A Benjamin Hale wrote about an epiphany (flash of light) that Levi Spaulding had experienced while praying in a grove of trees (source), Hale later taught medicine at Dartmouth, and also taught Hebrew for a couple years around 1827 (source). Although there were was a school-teacher named Hale and three Spauldings (James, Oliver and Levi) at Dartmouth, I can find nothing about a King Spaulding.
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Re: View of the Hebrews

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:57 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:14 pm
Either that or if there's no God, as what seems more reasonable, there's no weird explanation to create, as believer tend to do.
And that is a reasonable position to take in your view. Other points of view, of course, will vary.

Just out of interest, do you include the anthropic principle in your list of “weird explanations”?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

This board has been down this path before so I’m not interested in debating the anthropic principle. I am simply asking a yes/no question.

Regards,
MG
Yes. Funny, the first thoughtful address of the Anthropic principle I recall reading was in The Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan and I happened to be listening to that portion of that book this morning. Since you’re expert and have heard it all, I’ll leave it there.

Also saying in response “that is a reasonable position to take in your view. Other points of view, of course, will vary.” Doesn’t make much sense. I think you’re attempting to smuggle in the presuppositions you hold as coming from another point of view as if that point of view would render the option I mentioned unreasonable.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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