Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

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drumdude
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by drumdude »

CES letter is analogous to FAIRMormon. It’s an introduction to criticisms of the church just like FAIRmormon is an introduction to Mormon apologetics.

They’re both sufficient to offer the necessary information for someone to make a decision to stay or leave the church.

But of course one can go way off into the weeds and read all the primary source documents if they wish. If that’s what’s necessary to stay in Mormonism, they’re in trouble…
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malkie
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by malkie »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:27 pm
CES letter is analogous to FAIRMormon. It’s an introduction to criticisms of the church just like FAIRmormon is an introduction to Mormon apologetics.

They’re both sufficient to offer the necessary information for someone to make a decision to stay or leave the church.

But of course one can go way off into the weeds and read all the primary source documents if they wish. If that’s what’s necessary to stay in Mormonism, they’re in trouble…
Interesting analogy! I'd never thought about it that way.

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Moksha
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by Moksha »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:27 pm
CES letter is analogous to FAIRMormon. It’s an introduction to criticisms of the church just like FAIRmormon is an introduction to Mormon apologetics.
Even with FAIR, many Saints practice self-gaslighting. I imagine FAIR has mixed feelings about this practice. They are happy about the self-delusion, but they like taking credit.
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MG 2.0
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:40 am
I was sent this tidbit by an anonymous informant:
“Scott Gordon” wrote:Really Tyler? There are reasons that people might want to leave the church, but I would hope that the CES letter is not one of them. There's a little problem with being factually inaccurate. If 1 of my students wrote that they would get an F for their research. It's like claiming a Dan Brown novel is actually true.
A couple of thoughts here. First, Gordon implies that there are *better* reasons for leaving the Church than the CES Letter. This is a stunning admission. What are these “reasons,” one wonders?
It my not be an admission of wrong doing on the part of the church and its leaders as much as simply stating that there are certain facts which might be uncomfortable to critics and/or those that have or are considering leaving the church.

For example, there may be those that are uncomfortable with the church’s position/hard stance in regards to sodomy or the church’s current position towards polygamy. There are other positions of disagreement that some folks might take against what the church teaches in respect to what it considers to be other sinful behaviors and/or practices that people chose to engage in.

Same sex intimate relationships of any kind being another example.

Gambling, cheating and dishonesty, cheating on one’s spouse, etc.

Rather than staying in the church and trying to ‘cover up their sins’ some find it easier to simply leave. When we live in a community and don’t fit in with the norms we look for ways to either fit in or we look for other options.

Anyway, Scott Gordon may have had other things in mind other than what might be in yours.

How wide the divide it seems.

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MG
drumdude
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by drumdude »

MG,


It astounds me the lengths you and DCP go to in order to create a fantasy world where the majority of Mormons leave to indulge in sexual sins, rather than because they discover facts which destroy their belief.

It’s quite the projection. And it could be easily brought back in line with reality if you just talked to the ex-Mormons you know and ask them why they left.
MG 2.0
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by MG 2.0 »

I don’t come around much anymore and I’m not sure how long now I’ve been referred to as “charlatan” in the board’s caste system, but I do find it rather infantile behavior to call out any one board member in such a pejorative manner.

I’m not now nor ever have been a fraud.

No wonder other active members of the church don’t show up here.

And this is why I make my visits infrequently these days.

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MG
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by Dr Exiled »

They just want to sin. That's why they leave, sure. This trope has been around a long time, since the founding. One wonders whether Joseph Smith got that from his magic rock?
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:23 pm
They just want to sin. That's why they leave, sure.
As I said earlier:
When we live in a community and don’t fit in with the norms we look for ways to either fit in or we look for other options.
Nowhere did I say that this is the reason that you or drumdude left.

My point was that Scott Gordon may have had something else in mind other that what scratch was thinking.

Regards,
MG
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Shulem
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:19 pm
I’m not now nor ever have been a fraud.

An example of fraud is when the nose of Anubis was hacked out of the lead plate and the head reshaped in order to convert a god into a slave. That's fraud, wouldn't you say? I sure would. And I would hope that honest Mormons would as well. But I question: Is there any such thing as an honest Mormon?

How about you, MG? Are you ready to fall into my trap?

;)
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Shulem
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Re: Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

Post by Shulem »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:23 pm
They just want to sin. That's why they leave, sure. This trope has been around a long time, since the founding. One wonders whether Joseph Smith got that from his magic rock?

He got it from porking girls behind the barn...

Poor Emma. :oops:
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