Scott Gordon Attacks Tyler Livingston Over CES Letter

[Shulem]

My point was that Scott Gordon may have had something else in mind other that what scratch was thinking.

What was Doctor Scratch thinking?

Do tell? What was it that was on Doctor Scratch's mind that he did not say? Was he not simply asking what might be on Scott Gordon's mind?

[MG 2.0]

My point was that Scott Gordon may have had something else in mind other that what scratch was thinking.

What was Doctor Scratch thinking?

Do tell? What was it that was on Doctor Scratch's mind that he did not say? Was he not simply asking what might be on Scott Gordon's mind?

I suppose that would be up to him to further elaborate. Scratch may have been thinking more along the line of church history issues, science and religion and the like. Scott may have been thinking something else.

I guess we really don’t know either way, but it seemed, at least to me, that Scratch was thinking of something OTHER than the possibility that the church doesn’t really ‘fit’ the lifestyles that some might choose that are different than what the church prescribes.

You would have to admit that there are a good number of folks that leave because the church just isn’t a good fit for them anymore. Chronic gamblers, for example, are possibly going to feel uncomfortable at church. Those that are involved in other things that are contrary to church teachings…polygamist groups and their adherents, let’s say, are less than likely to show up to an LDS meetinghouse on Sunday.

This may be what Scott was referring to. The reasons that folks may be uncomfortable sitting in the pews every week.

Boredom is often used as a reason to not come to church. Sexual practices and beliefs could also be another reason.

I suppose the sky is the limit. But it’s not JUST church history issues, science and religion, etc. It can be other stuff.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I was sent this tidbit by an anonymous informant:



A couple of thoughts here. First, Gordon implies that there are *better* reasons for leaving the Church than the CES Letter. This is a stunning admission. What are these “reasons,” one wonders?

It my not be an admission of wrong doing on the part of the church and its leaders as much as simply stating that there are certain facts which might be uncomfortable to critics and/or those that have or are considering leaving the church.

For example, there may be those that are uncomfortable with the church’s position/hard stance in regards to sodomy or the church’s current position towards polygamy. There are other positions of disagreement that some folks might take against what the church teaches in respect to what it considers to be other sinful behaviors and/or practices that people chose to engage in.

Same sex intimate relationships of any kind being another example.

Gambling, cheating and dishonesty, cheating on one’s spouse, etc.

Rather than staying in the church and trying to ‘cover up their sins’ some find it easier to simply leave. When we live in a community and don’t fit in with the norms we look for ways to either fit in or we look for other options.

Anyway, Scott Gordon may have had other things in mind other than what might be in yours.

How wide the divide it seems.

Regards,
MG

What about ****ing kids? You know, all those Mormons who **** kids and are protected by your cult? Like, the historical record of Mormons ****ing kids is probably something people don’t like. Bishops. Boy Scout leaders. Incestuous dads in Arizona. Self-professed prophets marrying babies for their birthdays is another thing. You know. Things like that.

- Doc

[Shulem]

I suppose the sky is the limit. But it’s not JUST church history issues, science and religion, etc. It can be other stuff.

That sounds reasonable. Let's appeal to Wikipedia Ex-Mormon

Reasons for leaving

Most ex-Mormons leave Mormonism and the LDS Church because specific intellectual or spiritual reasons have led them to a conviction that the religion is false. The foremost reasons are disbelief both in Joseph Smith as a prophet and in the Book of Mormon as a religious and historical document. Reasons for this disbelief include issues with anthropological, linguistic, archaeological, and genetic evidence against the Book of Mormon in the New World. In addition to rejecting the Book of Mormon for such reasons, the Book of Abraham and other Mormon religious texts are rejected on similar grounds. A study of 3000 people who were formerly affiliated with the LDS Church recorded that 74 percent of respondents cited a disbelief in church doctrine or theology as major reason for leaving the church, but only 4 percent of respondents cited conflict with other church members as a large factor in their decision to leave. Also, just 4 percent claimed that a significant reason for apostasy was dissatisfaction with the rules of conduct professed by the LDS Church. This corroborates the assertion that many Mormons are satisfied with the communal aspect and attributes of LDS Church life.

Individuals leave Mormonism for a variety of reasons, although "single reason disaffiliates are rare among former Mormons." Research shows that 43 percent of ex-Mormon left due to unmet spiritual needs. Other reasons for leaving may include a belief that they are in a cult, logical or intellectual appraisal, belief changes or differences, spiritual conversion to another faith, life crises, and poor or hurtful responsiveness by Mormon leaders or congregations. Of former Mormons surveyed, 58 percent switched to other faiths or practices.

Those who adopt humanist or feminist perspectives may view certain Mormon doctrines (including past teachings on the spiritual status of black people, polygamy, and the role of women in society) as racist or sexist.

A minority of ex-Mormons cite their personal incompatibility with Mormon beliefs or culture. A 2003 Princeton Review publication quoted a student at church-owned Brigham Young University as stating, "the nonconformist will find a dull social life with difficulty finding someone that will be their friend, regardless of who they are or what they believe." Liberal views and political attitudes that challenge this conformity, and occasionally sexual orientation, are cited as reasons for leaving Mormonism.

In recent years, the LDS Church has become more politically active, particularly with regard to legislation barring civil marriage for same-sex couples. Official church involvement in the California Proposition 8 campaign was highly controversial, causing some Mormons to stop attending church.

[Kishkumen]

It my not be an admission of wrong doing on the part of the church and its leaders as much as simply stating that there are certain facts which might be uncomfortable to critics and/or those that have or are considering leaving the church.

For example, there may be those that are uncomfortable with the church’s position/hard stance in regards to sodomy or the church’s current position towards polygamy. There are other positions of disagreement that some folks might take against what the church teaches in respect to what it considers to be other sinful behaviors and/or practices that people chose to engage in.

Same sex intimate relationships of any kind being another example.

Gambling, cheating and dishonesty, cheating on one’s spouse, etc.

Rather than staying in the church and trying to ‘cover up their sins’ some find it easier to simply leave. When we live in a community and don’t fit in with the norms we look for ways to either fit in or we look for other options.

Anyway, Scott Gordon may have had other things in mind other than what might be in yours.

How wide the divide it seems.

Regards,
MG

Yeah, I feel badly for the people who think they have to leave the LDS Church to sin when most of the truly spectacular unrepentant sinners are members in good standing. Maybe those who leave are just more honest than the truly bad characters who stay.

In any case, I never bought into this argument. The truth is that the correlation between sin and leaving the church is usually circumstantial. All sin. Some also happen to leave the church. Those sinners who deny their sinful status point their fingers at the sinners who leave because they need to manufacture a way to feel superior in their sinful state of denial.

[Gadianton]

Chronic gamblers, for example, are possibly going to feel uncomfortable at church

boy are you getting desperate.

[MG 2.0]

[there are] truly bad characters who stay [in the church].

No argument there. Always some bad apples.

But I think it’s disingenuous for anyone to judge the church, or leave the church, because of the actions of a few wolves in sheep’s clothing that enter in among the flock.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Chronic gamblers, for example, are possibly going to feel uncomfortable at church

boy are you getting desperate.

You’re saying that chronic gamblers are NOT going feel uncomfortable coming to church and renewing covenants through the sacrament?

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

[there are] truly bad characters who stay [in the church].

No argument there. Always some bad apples.

But I think it’s disingenuous for anyone to judge the church, or leave the church, because of the actions of a few wolves in sheep’s clothing that enter in among the flock.

Regards,
MG

What happened to the power of discernment?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

boy are you getting desperate.

You’re saying that chronic gamblers are NOT going feel uncomfortable coming to church and renewing covenants through the sacrament?

Regards,
MG

Well, considering Mormons who **** kids and still attend are fairly abundant, perhaps Mormons who gamble chronically feel about the same level of shame and guilt as do the Mormons who **** kids?

- Doc