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No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:12 am
by Kishkumen
I am watching a discussion go down on the indefatigable Brian Hales' Facebook page, and I really can't get over the fact that somehow writing a book has been elevated to the level of a miracle just because its author claimed the work was miraculous.
When in the history of the world was it ever necessary for a miracle to occur to write a book?
Millions of books have been written over the millennia. Where was the miracle?
Many books have been deemed miraculous despite the fact that no miracle is required to write one.
What makes one such claim so different from the others?
If Mohammed received the Koran from Gabriel, do LDS people accept that this is a miracle?
If the most educated philosophers of Mediterranean antiquity believed that Homer was divinely inspired and that all truth could be found by proper interpretation of his text, were they not right? They were, after all, probably smarter people than most LDS apologists!
Calling the Book of Mormon miraculous is nothing more or less than a personal subjective opinion. There is nothing to be measured, proved, or disproved in the entire argument. Some think the writing of the Book of Mormon is a miraculous feat.
OK.
I don't.
There we are.
That said, is writing a book akin to walking on water? Raising the dead? Healing without medicine?
No. So where is the miracle?
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:21 am
by Shulem
Kishkumen wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:12 am
Where was the miracle?
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:34 am
by Gadianton
Bill Gates scored number 1 in his state's k-12 math assessment when he was in eighth grade. Is he a prophet? Oh that's right, his parents were educated. Well, many, many other parents were just as educated. Even if Joseph Smith's book was good and it was phenomenal that the son of poor farmers could write it, it's no more phenomenal than Bill Gates's achievement, and then going on to be a multi-billionaire. Smiths achievement would be a solid achievement by somebody extremely low on the totem pole, while Bill's accomplishment is extraordinary by somebody moderately high on the totem pole.
At the end of the day, Joe and Bill have something in common. The Windows operating system sucks just about as bad as the Book of Mormon, and in Joe's favor, people can leave Mormonism easier.
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:51 am
by IHAQ
The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas is a 2006 Holocaust novel by Irish novelist John Boyne.[1] Much like the process he undertakes when writing most of his novels, Boyne has said that he wrote the entire first draft in two and a half days, without sleeping much,[1] but also that he was quite a serious student of Holocaust-related literature for years before the idea for the novel even came to him.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy ... ed_Pyjamas
Miracle?
By comparison, Joseph was a serious student of the Bible and held a strong and imaginative interest in native Americans for many years prior to producing the Book of Mormon.
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:31 am
by Moksha
Shulem wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:21 am
That stone is hiding again!
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:33 pm
by Shulem
Moksha wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:31 am
Shulem wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:21 am
That stone is hiding again!
Imagine dodo Nelson trying to write a book of scripture or attempt to translate Egyptian text. Nelson is a faker in every respect. Mormon fraud!
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:08 pm
by Rivendale
I will mention here RFM's podcast Sherlock Holmes v. Joseph Smith again even though it has its own thread.
https://radiofreemormon.org/2023/01/rad ... eph-smith/ Brian is doing exactly what RFM discussed. He focuses on 5 or 6 naturalistic theories regarding the Book of Mormon and poking holes in each one while (as RFM said) puppy dogging his own theory. Keeping that theory away from criticism. RFM also uses a form of Bayesian reasoning to allocate odds of the naturalistic theory which are far more probable than a supernatural explanation. Brian also refuses to accept hybrid theories even though apologists do it all the time as in the tight and loose translation techniques. I noticed in the thread that someone did challenge him with some of RFM's information and he puppy dogs his response as
PS I’m trying to keep this on topic. Edit. I see Brian did address RFM directly. Here is his response.
I’m afraid I’m repeating myself here, but you are vocalizing the quintessential secular view. It is complete with a non-explanation, but with lots of general observations and statements like “can't prove that and you can't disprove that.” I recently listened to a podcast that shifted the burden of proof to me to prove that some combination of the eight theories could not have produced the Book of Mormon. Great polemics but a dodge in my view. Here are a few observations:
• Naturalists generally pride themselves for having naturalistic explanations for about everything, especially anything religious or reportedly supernatural. The hodge-podge of possibilities they promote don’t constitute a genuine reproducible theory. Plausibility is obviously subjective, but something plausible, replicable, or historically reproduced would be great.
• Joseph Smith didn’t write the Book of Mormon, he dictated it. While some grammar is problematic, the content is nearly perfect. Producing that as extemporaneous speech is remarkable.
• Joseph Smith’s memory recall during the three-month dictation of over 5000 specific people, places, groups, and times exceeded 99%. A feat accomplished while creating storylines, sermons, chiasms, genealogies, and wordsmithing every sentence.
• No genius has extemporaneously spoken a first oral draft of even 50,000 words containing the level of complexity of the Book of Mormon, that became the final draft without content editing, redrafting, and revising.
• Unbelievers will not be impressed and will undoubtedly assuage serious concerns (should they have any) with a variety of speculations. Believers will see this data as supporting Joseph Smith’s claim that the Book of Mormon came through supernatural means, through the “gift and power of God.”
And crickets after this challenge.
Actually there are quite a few publications that take a close look at 19th century influence on the Book of Mormon, thematic and linguistic correlations with books like The Late War, View of the Hebrews, etc.
I fail to see how your theory would fare well. How exactly would you go about formulating a reliable theory for evidence-based supernatural involvement?
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:16 pm
by dastardly stem
It can only be a miracle if you first presuppose the book is uniquely divinely inspired, it seems to me. If someone claims a miracle for something as mundane and repeatable as writing a book, to anyone who is skeptical, then that one is simply stating their claim is true because they say its true, and nothing more. There is no conversation to be had beyond their presupposition.
Sounds like a disastrous conversation, but a common one if anyone tries to engage on the merits of one's religion.
The problem we have with books and inspiration is millions of books have inspired billions of people. The Book of Mormon is but one of many millions. And if we wish to measure the amount of people inspired by any one book, the Book of Mormon must fall down the list behind perhaps millions of other books. That doesn't make it without inspiration. it makes it not unique. It makes it not miraculous.
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:04 pm
by Physics Guy
Maybe I'm just missing stuff because I've never read the Book of Mormon right through, but I've read a bunch of passages. None of them has struck me as so impressively coherent or complex that it would be hard to dictate extemporaneously. On the contrary, all of them have seemed to lurch and ramble about as much as I would expect from a story being made up as it goes.
Re: No Miracle in Writing a Book
Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:16 pm
by ¥akaSteelhead
Aron Ra reading and discussing the Book of Mormon with a group of folk on Youtube is a hoot.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... bpAggkoVHf