It can only be a miracle if you first presuppose the book is uniquely divinely inspired, it seems to me. If someone claims a miracle for something as mundane and repeatable as writing a book, to anyone who is skeptical, then that one is simply stating their claim is true because they say its true, and nothing more. There is no conversation to be had beyond their presupposition.
Sounds like a disastrous conversation, but a common one if anyone tries to engage on the merits of one's religion.
The problem we have with books and inspiration is millions of books have inspired billions of people. The Book of Mormon is but one of many millions. And if we wish to measure the amount of people inspired by any one book, the Book of Mormon must fall down the list behind perhaps millions of other books. That doesn't make it without inspiration. it makes it not unique. It makes it not miraculous.
Adding to the negative side for apologists' claims for the Book of Mormon is that the other books do not have a salesforce of tens of thousands going door to door to convince people that their book is inspirational - well, the Encyclopedia Britanica used to
The vast majority of people who have been introduced to the Book of Mormon by the traveling salesmen/women have found it uninteresting.
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It can only be a miracle if you first presuppose the book is uniquely divinely inspired, it seems to me. If someone claims a miracle for something as mundane and repeatable as writing a book, to anyone who is skeptical, then that one is simply stating their claim is true because they say its true, and nothing more. There is no conversation to be had beyond their presupposition.
Sounds like a disastrous conversation, but a common one if anyone tries to engage on the merits of one's religion.
The problem we have with books and inspiration is millions of books have inspired billions of people. The Book of Mormon is but one of many millions. And if we wish to measure the amount of people inspired by any one book, the Book of Mormon must fall down the list behind perhaps millions of other books. That doesn't make it without inspiration. it makes it not unique. It makes it not miraculous.
Adding to the negative side for apologists' claims for the Book of Mormon is that the other books do not have a salesforce of tens of thousands going door to door to convince people that their book is inspirational - well, the Encyclopedia Britanica used to
The vast majority of people who have been introduced to the Book of Mormon by the traveling salesmen/women have found it uninteresting.
Yes. A book that is inspired by God, created for mankind, would not need to be foisted upon people who often get cajoled into believing by a host of pestering stalkers, or to whatever degree the local members and missionaries push it. But you're right, even with that team of thousands playing games of salesmanship and tugging on emotional heartstrings there are relatively few inspired by the book. There's no reason to assume magic was involved in its production.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
It can only be a miracle if you first presuppose the book is uniquely divinely inspired, it seems to me. If someone claims a miracle for something as mundane and repeatable as writing a book, to anyone who is skeptical, then that one is simply stating their claim is true because they say its true, and nothing more. There is no conversation to be had beyond their presupposition.
Sounds like a disastrous conversation, but a common one if anyone tries to engage on the merits of one's religion.
The problem we have with books and inspiration is millions of books have inspired billions of people. The Book of Mormon is but one of many millions. And if we wish to measure the amount of people inspired by any one book, the Book of Mormon must fall down the list behind perhaps millions of other books. That doesn't make it without inspiration. it makes it not unique. It makes it not miraculous.
Adding to the negative side for apologists' claims for the Book of Mormon is that the other books do not have a salesforce of tens of thousands going door to door to convince people that their book is inspirational - well, the Encyclopedia Britanica used to
The vast majority of people who have been introduced to the Book of Mormon by the traveling salesmen/women have found it uninteresting.
I agree with this completely. Without missionaries injecting, shaping, manipulating the experience, not many would find it inspirational and as you say, not many do even with the pressure put on by the missionaries. I remember an AP, when I was down in Brazil on my mission, teaching an investigator that had fallen asleep during the discusssion. When she awoke, without missing a beat, he said that the spirit had been so strong that it caused her to fall into a deep sleep, just like Ammon ....
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
Adding to the negative side for apologists' claims for the Book of Mormon is that the other books do not have a salesforce of tens of thousands going door to door to convince people that their book is inspirational - well, the Encyclopedia Britanica used to
The vast majority of people who have been introduced to the Book of Mormon by the traveling salesmen/women have found it uninteresting.
I agree with this completely. Without missionaries injecting, shaping, manipulating the experience, not many would find it inspirational and as you say, not many do even with the pressure put on by the missionaries. I remember an AP, when I was down in Brazil on my mission, teaching an investigator that had fallen asleep during the discusssion. When she awoke, without missing a beat, he said that the spirit had been so strong that it caused her to fall into a deep sleep, just like Ammon ....
I bet he was considered to be one of the most "spiritual" of the missionaries in the entire mission
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details. Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
I am watching a discussion go down on the indefatigable Brian Hales' Facebook page, and I really can't get over the fact that somehow writing a book has been elevated to the level of a miracle just because its author claimed the work was miraculous.
When in the history of the world was it ever necessary for a miracle to occur to write a book?
Millions of books have been written over the millennia. Where was the miracle?
Many books have been deemed miraculous despite the fact that no miracle is required to write one.
What makes one such claim so different from the others?
If Mohammed received the Koran from Gabriel, do LDS people accept that this is a miracle?
If the most educated philosophers of Mediterranean antiquity believed that Homer was divinely inspired and that all truth could be found by proper interpretation of his text, were they not right? They were, after all, probably smarter people than most LDS apologists!
Calling the Book of Mormon miraculous is nothing more or less than a personal subjective opinion. There is nothing to be measured, proved, or disproved in the entire argument. Some think the writing of the Book of Mormon is a miraculous feat.
OK.
I don't.
There we are.
That said, is writing a book akin to walking on water? Raising the dead? Healing without medicine?
No. So where is the miracle?
Another Book of Mormon bashing thread. It’s hard to let go of it completely isn’t it?
Another Book of Mormon bashing thread. It’s hard to let go of it completely isn’t it?
Hey, I've crawled all over and under the Book of Mormon and have dissected it in ways very few people ever do and have proven the Book of Mormon really is an amazing piece of work. Yes, it's a fraud and not historical but it really is amazing that Joseph Smith was able to put it together and pull it off as he did. I have threads in the Celestial forum that are attributed to proving how amazing the Book of Mormon is and give credit where credit is due.
You are welcome to venture up into the Celestial board if you find it too offensive down here in Terrestrial. Or maybe, just maybe, you like rolling around down here in the mud because you're so used to it and just can't give it up. Yeah, that could be. MG, you're just as dirty as the rest of us!
Hey, I've crawled all over and under the Book of Mormon and have dissected it in ways very few people ever do and have proven the Book of Mormon really is an amazing piece of work. Yes, it's a fraud and not historical but it really is amazing that Joseph Smith was able to put it together and pull it off as he did. I have threads in the Celestial forum that are attributed to proving how amazing the Book of Mormon is and give credit where credit is due.
You are welcome to venture up into the Celestial board if you find it too offensive down here in Terrestrial. Or maybe, just maybe, you like rolling around down here in the mud because you're so used to it and just can't give it up. Yeah, that could be. MG, you're just as dirty as the rest of us!
