Daniel McClellan Debunks The Mormon View Of Grace

[Everybody Wang Chung]

The Church has a different view of grace than most other Christian religions. In Mormonism, we believe in a works-based salvation and that it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do.

Scholar Daniel McClellan casts doubt on the Mormon view of works-based salvation. I found it very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmXSBqNCYJ8

[Shulem]

Who was Nephi specifically talking to in the context of chapter 25 with regard to being saved by grace after all we can do? Bear in mind, the previous chapter (24) was a recitation of Isaiah 14. But now it's time for Nephi to cut in and start preaching doctrine to his OWN people as well as all future peoples who would one day read his words. But in particular, Nephi was talking to his own people who become Christians under the atonement of the future sacrifice of Christ and yet they must keep the Law of Moses at the same time.

Wherefore, I write unto my people

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

So, it seems to me that "after all we can do" is referencing all the rites and rituals necessary under the Law of Moses whereby salvation is obtained, but ultimately the grace comes from the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I think that's what Joseph Smith was thinking when he wrote that. Smith wrote the Book of Mormon with same kind of grace the apostle Paul taught and that to see the Father was to see the Son because they were One God but separate manifestations.

[Shulem]

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do in keeping the law of Moses.

*THAT* is what Joseph was trying to say.

And you learned it here at Discuss Mormonism, thanks to Shulem.

You're welcome.

[drumdude]

I appreciate his efforts, but making an appeal to consistency seems misguided given that Joseph was making it up as he went along.

Nothing within Mormonism is consistent.

Polygamy is the epitome of this fact. Joseph declared it a new and everlasting mandatory covenant only for it to be completely discarded decades later.

[dastardly stem]

Scripture is inconsistent considering all examples we’ve had on offer. That’s no big deal. Joseph created scripture perfectly on that consideration, and maybe did too good a job of being consistent, nearly spoiling it.

But why anyone thinks there’s a meaningful disagreement here is beyond me. You have to practice some pretty silly gymnastics like our own MG to think saving by grace can’t include the saved subjects doing something. And whatever one imagines is the actual tool or impetus that will some day save them hardly matters. If god is going to save people for no rhyme or reason but because he wants to, it hardly matters if we try to do good or not, I suppose.

[Shulem]

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do in keeping the law of Moses.

Nephi's doctrine of salvation through Christ is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do in keeping the law of Moses:

And we did observe to keep the judgments, and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the  law of Moses.

Behold, my soul delighteth in  proving unto my people the truth of the  coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the  law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the  typifying of him.

And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

[Shulem]

McClellan is suggesting that the word "despite" be incorporated within the phrase but this is a bit of a problem. The word despite = without being affected by; in spite of. But the teachings of Nephi suggest the opposite because salvation was obtained through the law of Moses coupled with a belief of the grace of Christ. Both went hand in hand until such time as Christ performed the last sacrifice whereby the law of animal sacrifice would be discontinued resulting in salvation alone coming through the grace of Christ.

Sorry McClellan, you're wrong.

[Shulem]

I don't interpret the phrase "after all we can do" as having anything to do with everyday good works. It's not about the good works of daily life! It's "ALL" about practicing the law of Moses and abiding by the ordinances of animal sacrifice. The principle Smith was trying to project in his poorly written sentence is that Nephi believed he had to do everything required by the law of sacrifice given by Moses so that the futuristic sacrifice of Jesus could supersede and his grace encompass all.

The Mormons have it wrong. They have interpreted that verse wrong and continue to teach that you have to work your way to heaven. Nobody works their way to heaven! It is by grace that we are saved, not by works. Joseph Smith believed that when he dictated the Book of Mormon.

I so testify.

Shulem

[Shulem]

Daniel McClellan, get your ass back here to Discuss Mormonism so I can ask you some questions.

I have something very special for you. I'm sorry to say that David Bokovoy has shirked and dropped the ball and it's time for you to pick it up.

Come see Shulem, now please.

Thanks

[Kishkumen]

I will say this in favor of Dan’s view: there is a lot of strange English usage in the Book of Mormon. So, why not read “after all” in a counterintuitive way?

In any case, I really don’t feel it is necessary to have a Pauline view of grace. I don’t even like Paul. He’s a vainglorious ass and a huckster.